DANI: Hey, this is Dani and this is Katy Says. This is an interesting show, because we are recording this live at the B.E.A.C.H., which stands for Body Education Alignment Center for Health. That’s in Ventura.
KATY: We’re actually at the beach, though, kinda.
DANI: Kind of. We’re kind of at the beach.
KATY: We’re kind of at the beach. We can see the beach.
DANI: Yeah. I haven’t been to the beach yet. I need to get to the beach.
DANI: I know, I know.
KATY: Oh, my goodness.
DANI: I got a head cold, so forgive any snorkles, snuffles, or sneezes. And this is being recorded on 3 different mobile devices, none of which are intended for this, so it’ll be interesting.
DANI: But it’s fun! And we don’t get to do this very often. The reason we’re all here is because this is where people that are studying at the Restorative Exercise® Institute do part of the final part of their schooling and testing.
KATY: One of the places.
DANI: One of the places. It’s beautiful here, and the people here are so cool. I’ve decided to pin Katy down and make her record a podcast.
KATY: In my free time.
DANI: In all her free time. Yeah.
KATY: And I’m happy to do so.
DANI: And she’s going to crochet me a hat. But what I –
DANI: What I – in your free time!
KATY: Okay, got it.
DANI: What I have to say to Katy and the podcast of Katy Says, is congratulations, because Katy Says was voted one of the 19 best health and wellness podcasts by Greatist – that’s Greatist with an –ist dot com and their list. And that was picked up by The Huffington Post and that’s a huge honor because we’re in there with a bunch of amazing people that are doing amazing things.
KATY: Like, seasoned podcasts. Not like – what do we have, 12 under our belt?
DANI: We’re squatting on the floor on foam blocks, with an iPhone now and –
KATY: It’s the Greatist. The Greatist with an “i.”
DANI: So congratulations, Katy, for that.
KATY: And as well to you, Dani.
DANI: Congratulations to us!
KATY: And thank you everyone who’s listening, because that’s the real winner here.
DANI: Yeah. Who’s the heroes? You’re the heroes.
KATY: Yay! All right.
DANI: Okay, so today, Katy and I are going to be talking about Boobs.
DANI: Boobs! Let’s all say it.
(Studio audience) Booooobs.
DANI: So it’s the boob show, or rather a show about boob health.
KATY: Every show’s kind of the boob show, though.
DANI: Well, yeah
KATY: Because we’re on it, right. Breasts. It’s about breasts.
DANI: So the first part of the show, we’re going to explore what boobs need when we’re referring to natural movement. And we’ll discuss what our natural and unnatural loads that are placed on the breasts, and what sort of necessary loads are lacking in our modern, underwire life.
DANI: The second part of the show will answer some boob health related questions, concerns folks have about going braless, how to transition to more bra-free time if you’re thinking about going that way, and for you and your boobs. Questions you have about you and your boobs. And any other questions people have about our lovely, dangly parts, and then Katy at the end will hopefully squeeze some – ha! Squeeze –movement in there to help us put all this new information to work. So maybe if you have a stretch or two?
KATY: That sounds good. Okay, at the end.
DANI: I am going braless in honor of this show.
KATY: I can hear it in your voice, actually.
KATY: It’s just a little lower.
DANI: Yeah? Yeah. Husky.
KATY: That’s right.
DANI: I have a head cold, too.
DANI: A good question to start with for me, that I want to know, is like, how are they hanging there? Is it ligaments, skin?
KATY: That’s a good question. Well, there’s suspensory ligaments there that are holding – I mean they’re in a skin container, which is in a fascial container, but there’s also suspensory ligaments and all of that stuff I was mentioning before is connected to the muscle between the breast and the rib cage. So lots of different connection systems, I guess, if you will.
DANI: Okay, so, aside from breastfeeding, which we know that’s what boobs are for, right?
KATY: Maybe, I mean, yeah. That’s one of the –
DANI: Well, so – what other kind of natural loads are they designed – what else are they for, besides breastfeeding?
KATY: Well, who knows what they’re for, but I think – we talk about natural movement and in Move Your DNA I get into this idea that you’re not moving naturally, as well as your parts aren’t moving naturally. So what are the motions – what are the loads to the breasts? What are the natural loads to the breasts? And that would be feeling their own weight, that’s one of them.
DANI: Just, you mean, by like –
KATY: Well, so there’s – it’s kind of interesting when you talk about the weight of something, because that’s always from a standing still perspective. So they’re under their weight when you’re standing still, but also it’s natural for them to be moving around as you are, so the more movement you do, the more natural it would be for the breast to come with you, right? So bending over, standing up, dancing.
DANI: So we’re talking untethered.
KATY: Right now I’m just talking about the breast in its natural form, so not with anything.
DANI: The wild breast.
KATY: (growls) Yes.
DANI: (sings National Geographic theme)
KATY: I’m surprised there’s not more of that, like the breasts galloping across the opening of National Geographic. Or Omaha – is it Mutual Omaha?
DANI: Wild Kingdom.
KATY: Yes! Oh my gosh, that’s a total flashback.
DANI: Leopards and breasts.
KATY: Right. Or breast leopards. And leopards’ breasts. Um, so, anyway. Movement – you are movement. Moving. But then you’ve got musculature underneath the breast, so the movement of that musculature also moves the breast, or doesn’t, depending on how much that musculature moves. In general, you can think about the musculature from the sternum moving – you know, which is where your necklace hangs, or the breastplate. I’m trying to think of more layman’s terms for it. It’s the sternum, but if you find where a necklace would hang, or a chain, you find that notch and you travel all the way down to the bottom of the sternum, there’s the tip, that xyphoid process. So if you trace from that sternum out to that shoulder, attaching to your humeri – your humerus on one arm, the upper arm bone – so there’s this musculature that’s going between there. So that muscle underneath, as it’s doing its job contracting, releasing, it’s moving the tissue that’s on top of it. And I pull that out a little bit because when you think of movement, you think of big muscles – arms, boobs – but I’m thinking more of the cellular movement. You know, what is the cell’s experience? So let’s say your pectoralis – your chest muscles – are doing. What they’re doing, they’re pushing and pulling on your breasts as well. And then breastfeeding is an – there’s a movement there, as is – so milk production. I separate between the two. So there’s making milk, you know, there’s milk being produced and coming out and moving out, but then there’s also the loads to the nipple. So the baby’s busy doing something there.
DANI: And their little hands when they’re kneading.
KATY: I mean, yeah, there’s that, too. That’s not always that fun, but it’s there, it’s happening. There’s the mouth kneading – you know, the funniest thing I saw was there used to be a horse on a local ranch of puppies – we’d call it the horse puppy. And when it wants milk, there’s cows kind of by us, too – they whack their head into –
DANI: The sack?
KATY: I’m trying to think – the udder?
DANI: Yeah, but it’s a horse
KATY: And there’s a teat.
DANI: A teat. I think it’s a teat for a horse.
KATY: So I was just corrected on this one time in class by a veterinarian, and she said the udder is actually the sack, and the teats are the things that you grab. You grab a teat, milk the teats. And so it was whacking the udder, just like whaling on it, so then I didn’t feel so bad about my kids mangling my breasts.
DANI: (audio not clear)
KATY: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so there’s that. There’s also temperature, right? So there’s a response to temperature or excitement, which all tends to look like the same response. So these are natural loads, and if you think about them, how many of these natural loads have you experienced over a lifetime? It might be reduced by your temperature controlled environment, clothing, bras that are minimizing those types of movement. But then I like to say, too, that the weight of your breast is probably not the natural weight of your breast.
DANI: What do you mean by that?
KATY: Well, it’s when you’re talking about natural movement and how things occurred in nature, the weight of people’s breasts might not be the same natural weight of their breast were they eating a natural diet, right? So – it becomes important later on when we’re talking about, should I shuck my bra? I think it’s actually ‘chuck’ my bra, not ‘shuck’ my bra. It’s not corn, sorry. So should I chuck my bra or not, because I want to go natural? And it’s like there’s lots of components of natural. Again, so when I say a breast under its own weight I’m talking about its natural weight.
KATY: It might be more, but that’s all I can think about right now.
DANI: Okay, (audio unclear) temperature? Just like a natural load to your boobs?
DANI: Everybody’s nodding, so they all agree. Temperature.
DANI: Who would have thought it?
KATY: Or excitement.
KATY: I mean, it’s a response. You respond in all sorts of ways – you move, you’re moving all sorts of different ways besides just what you do for exercise. So we’re talking about arrector pili, the horripilation, another word for goose bumps. Millions of muscles all over your body, and the same thing – parts of your breast are similar in that way, that they respond to temperature by shifting shape. It’s movement, baby.
DANI: So we kind of have a clear idea of what those loads are that the breast is designed to take, or is in its natural –
KATY: Or has experienced. It has experienced in its natural state for a long time.
DANI: What are some things that we do or don’t do, what are some unnatural loads that we place on it? Or lack of natural movement that we do, just in our every day non-Mutual of Omaha life?
KATY: Non-wild life?
DANI: Yes. Sitting at a desk, or you know –
KATY: Well, it’s – I think you could probably look at the list that I just gave and you could come up with the things, the person listening –
KATY: -- Millions of people listening to this podcast right now could come up with the things that they’re doing that are undermining or removing the natural loads. So yes, there are – there’s non-natural loads but then there’s also introduction of unnatural loads. So I talked about bras, right? So bras, lifting or pressing – there’s also the lack of arm movement in general.
DANI: Like reaching, only just reaching out in front of us, or –
KATY: Yeah, well, what do you do with your arms the bulk of the time? You’re on your computer, right?
KATY: What is that position? And then imagine that you had nothing and had to get everything, and imagine what you would be doing with your arms, you know?
DANI: Yeah, reaching behind me, in front of me, to the side of me.
KATY: Yeah, and not even just the position, but the work that you – I mean, you’re pulling things out, you’re lifting things up and down, you’re carrying your kids, you’re digging all day for food. You’re reaching up and clambering to get where you need to go. You’re missing quite a bit, and so as far as the natural environment to your breast, we’re at a seriously compromised environment for sure. And temperature control – I mean, it’s a nice, comfortable temperature here inside these walls, you know. There’s air conditioning on, but most people live in a place where they’re not constantly responding to temperature. We’ll talk about that next in the ball show, you know. In the balls show, that temperature is a big natural load – or the response to temperature is a big, natural load to these parts.
DANI: That’s true. So as far as – so shoulder movements matter, because your shoulder, which I bet a bunch of people wouldn’t think about their shoulder being important to their boob, but it is.
KATY: It’s right there.
DANI: It’s right there. So – I guess that’s something to think about.
DANI: It’s more than just the boobs and whether or not you go braless.
KATY: Yeah, breast health is larger than the bra. I just think we just think that everything’s a vacuum.
KATY: And hopefully your breast is not in a vacuum right now, although I shouldn’t judge.
DANI: Well, you know. What I do in my free time is none of your business.
KATY: That’s right.
DANI: But I think that’s an easy way to think, just that because the first thing we’re going to focus on is feet health – we’re going to look at our shoes.
DANI: I mean, that’s kind of a natural – maybe if I just go braless, but I could go braless and still have my hands out in front of me at the computer, and commuting for three hours in front of me, and cooking like that – never moving, and so I wouldn’t really be doing 100% of what I’d be doing for my breasts.
KATY: No, and a bra – the idea of a bra, or reducing the support of a bra is a cool place to start, because it doesn’t take any extra time. If you’re talking about how much you use your arms and all that other stuff, that changes a lot. It requires a larger change of your – of the way that you live, but changing your bra is just putting something different on in the morning, or taking something off earlier. It’s not like you have to add any more reps.
KATY: There’s no more reps.
KATY: That being said, there’s a lot of people when we get to the questions, I bet there’s a lot of people who are like, there’s no way I could take off my bra. And it’s like, fine. So let’s do these other things. Let’s talk about shoulder health and arm motion, and so it’s – I think that if you can think about your breasts as a part of your shoulder girdle instead of as something, like some sort of frosting on top of your body that’s not related to anything else – you can improve your breast health by improving the environment of where it lives.
DANI: That’s awesome – frosting.
KATY: Breast frosting.
DANI: That’s a good way to think about it. So you can go multiple ways with that. It’s like, I can’t live without my bra, or I just – I need my bra. I’m not comfortable depending on how I feel about that, but there’s still things I can do about it. And well, if we could just move into questions now –
DANI: For people that –
KATY: Well, spit it out.
DANI: I’m going to spit it out. Are there health benefits to wearing a bra?
KATY: I don’t know. I don’t know. Bras aren’t that old – bras are pretty new. Also, you know, again – if we talk about natural or your natural load or the weight of the breast, what if your breast is unnaturally heavy? In which case the breast is providing support. I’m sorry – the bra is providing support, so I think that you can usually find a benefit to something. However, it’s kind of like an orthotic, right? In that case, the bra’s like an orthotic. It’s supporting a structure that’s not functioning “right” – big air quotes around correctly or the word right – but for a lot of people it can bring about relief, but when you look at your relationship with the bra, there’s a chance that you might have slapped it on before you ever needed it. So are we training our breasts to be out of shape? That’s my – that’s my question. People are worried about – the question’s like, it’s going to collapse! We need support!
DANI: That’s the number one concern that came up is, are my boobs going to droop? Are they going to be down at my knees? Like, you know, the ladies in National Geographic.
KATY: Yeah. You know, that’s so funny. Because we talked before about the pictures that everyone goes to look at in National Geographic and I happened to stay over New Year’s at this rustic cabin, and it was stuffed full of National Geographic.
DANI: No way!
KATY: Like a whole room, like hoarder style.
DANI: We were just talking about that!
KATY: Hoarding of National Geographic from the ‘50s and ‘60s.
DANI: Did you pore through them?
KATY: I read all of them. That’s how much fun I am on New Year’s Eve.
DANI: And you’re making fun of me for my boobs in a vacuum.
KATY: No! I should have done that instead. That would have been a better way to spend my New Year’s Eve.
DANI: Did you come across any of those pictures we talked about?
KATY: I came across pictures of lots of boobs, and none of them were droopy. So I’m wondering if it’s not a small – if it’s kind of like a cliché, like if there are some pictures of droopy boobs somewhere, because I looked at a lot of boobs on New Year’s Eve. Hordes of breasts, you know, in different – you know, I love National Geographic.
DANI: I played Twister with my kids and went to bed.
KATY: Yeah, I know. So we have our own version of fun.
DANI: So you didn’t find those. Well.
KATY: So not to say that they’re not there – I’ve seen those pictures, too. It’s just that everyone goes to this picture and says, I don’t want this – but it’s like, let’s look at lots of breasts, you know? You’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all? No, you need to see them all. An old boyfriend told me that. True story.
DANI: Okay, so the boob sag, maybe, you’re saying, if I went out and I took off my bra that eventually they might be able to hold themselves up by muscles underneath them.
KATY: Yeah, so – you have to think about the whole picture. It’s always whole body with me, right? So every time the question’s like, we can talk about boobs, but I’m always going to be talking about whole body again. So I’m just saying that your – the state of your breast has to do with your whole body movement and your diet and what you do all of the time. It’s not really, again, just what’s happening on the front of your chest. And so your suspensory ligaments – like, how are they supposed to work if they never actually get to feel the load of your breast? But maybe your breast is too large, in which case you can downgrade the support. You can slowly – this book, my next book that’s coming out is on transitioning well to minimal footwear. We have this idea that barefoot is natural, so I’ll take off my shoes and run around, but I get injured. There’s this transition period needed. You have to slowly give back the work to the feet. So the same thing, you have to slowly give the work to the tissues that make up the breasts, and you also have to strengthen the muscles that are part of the shoulder support system that are the shoulder girdle. So maybe it’s upper bodywork or hanging for you before you think about ditching the bra.
DANI: On that note then, would a bra or boob ever be too big? I mean, if it could be – if the suspensory ligaments and the muscles could be conditioned to hold it?
KATY: Well, tissue doesn’t endlessly adapt. Tissue doesn’t endlessly adapt. So I do think you can have a breast – I do think you can have an unnaturally – for you – large breast. Not to say that everyone should have the same breast size, it’s just that again – relative to your size – is your breast your natural size, you know? It’s like, what are the factors that influence breast size, and I would – if I could make a mechanical list and then there’s a whole bunch of things I don’t even know to include that are influencing the breast size, how many of those are affected by lifestyle and being in the tank so to speak? Because our breasts are in the tank – it’s a breast tank. It’s a tank full of breasts. Which is the best zoo ever, oh my gosh!
DANI: That’s a moneymaker! Oh my gosh! That’d be good.
KATY: See, we need to ditch this podcast thing and open up the breast tank.
DANI: Yeah, you come up with all these great ideas.
KATY: It’d be on the Greatist list. Top 1 best place to go for New Year’s Eve.
DANI: The breast tank.
KATY: The breast tank.
DANI: Would they be, like bobbing, or watching them?
KATY: I guess it depends on what the tank’s full of.
DANI: Or like with dolphins, you could go in.
KATY: You could take a picture. Ride the breasts for 5 minutes!
DANI: With your yellow life preserver, yeah. And it’s too bad you can’t see what we’re doing with our hands, because it’s good stuff.
KATY: Well, it’s a bit misleading. It makes me think, like, I –
DANI: Oh, no! Ha! Sorry. I was pretending I was in the tank!
KATY: If only you could see what I was doing with this motorboat right now. Sorry. Sorry. Okay, focus. We should not have an audience. We need to not have an audience. We really need to get back to doing this on our own. So anyway, more questions!
DANI: Oh, so we have a ton of questions. We already answered those questions, but I was talking to some people here and there’s all sorts of different bras. There’s athletic bras, underwire bras, pushup bras. There’s all sorts of things out there; what do you wear?
KATY: I wear – typically, when I wear – I wear a bra, a lot of the time. And it’s always a sports bra. I don’t own anything now that’s not a sports bra. I don’t want to have any pushup or underwire bras. So nothing fancy.
DANI: It could be fancy.
KATY: It’s not.
DANI: Sporty and fancy.
KATY: Sporty. It’s sporty.
DANI: So for underwires, it’s – a lot of people wear underwires, and they’re comfortable for a lot of people and they’re uncomfortable for a lot of us. And there’s concerns about that stiffness obstructing lymph flow – or, what was the question? It was electromagnetic flow?
KATY: The flow of electrons?
DANI: Yeah, well, - what do you?
KATY: I don’t know. I don’t know anything about the flow of electrons based on something being put on the body externally. And as far as the flow of lymphatics, again I don’t know about the flow of lymphatics from external pressures, since it’s an internal system. But if the external device is limiting or changing the loads to the body underneath that, that can be a potential effector of lymphatic function.
KATY: For me, the way that I see things like lymphatic flow is tied up to – again – the health and the use of your musculo-skeletal system. I don’t see it as really a separate system. So it would fall under, like if you wanted to improve the lymphatics of your breast, you have to improve the musculoskeletal function of your shoulder girdle. Again, it’s not like – the breast’s lymphatic system is dependent on shoulder motion, arm motion, shoulder motion.
DANI: Right. Like before, it’s not any one thing. It has to all –
KATY: Right, right. I haven’t worn an underwire bra for years – something tells me the way you said that question, like it’s uncomfortable for some of us, do you wear one ever?
DANI: No. No, for years.
KATY: So I wonder – is – we should have done some research. We should have been changing bras during this podcast, like the Oscars, they’re changing dresses. The hosts are changing dresses, so we could talk about it. But I wonder if –
DANI: I can tell you from memory.
KATY: Well, it’s underwire, you know. It could limit rib cage motion.
KATY: So if it’s pressing on the rib and then you have muscles underneath the rib that are supposed to be moving the ribs kind of individually, which is part of the lymphatic system. You’ve got a lot of lymph nodes running down the sternum.
DANI: Well, that could just be any too-tight bra or ill-fitting bra, it doesn’t have to be wire to do that.
KATY: Well, you know, wire is more pressure. Wire is more pressure.
KATY: For sure.
DANI: That’s true. And I think that’s #1 is that if you’re going to wear a bra, is be comfortable!
DANI: Be comfortable in it.
KATY: Well, but you know what, comfort means different things to different people. A lot of people are comfortable by the way they look in their clothes, that there’s a discomfort from not looking a certain way. So I don’t want to leave those people out, but if you’re hearing this right now and you’re like, oh my gosh, I want to reduce the unnatural loads to my breast, you could swap out an underwire for something with a little less structure. In which case you’re still feeling supported, or comfortable about appearance, because you know, so much of it is about how it looks for other people’s comfort. You know, maybe you don’t care about how it looks, but.
DANI: That’s a whole cultural issue.
KATY: Yeah, that’s separate.
DANI: That’s a whole thing that we could just talk about for hours.
KATY: We could. But I can’t change the culture – I couldn’t change the culture, but I can help you change your bra.
DANI: Can we talk about that, then?
KATY: Yeah, do it.
DANI: I wear an underwire and I just, I don’t want to anymore. But I still maybe want to wear a bra, or maybe I want to go braless on the night and on the weekends. Just like a barefoot shoe, I guess I should transition, right?
KATY: Yeah, there’s a transition, right? You’re having to slowly give the loads to your tissues so that they can respond and become stronger. So the easiest thing to do is put your bra on later and take it off sooner – that’s when you’re at home. A lot of people seep in their bra. You can stop sleeping in your bra because the loads are pretty small compared to standing and jogging or whatever else that you’re doing. Work on your shoulder girdle mechanics – again, in Move Your DNA there’s that whole swinging/hanging section. You know, get your upper body stronger so that you can change – you know, a lot of people say, “I don’t like the shape of my breast when it’s without my bra.” It’s like, well, what’s the strength of your shoulder girdle look like? Because the shape of your breast will change.
DANI: That can change, and I think that’s important.
KATY: That’s huge! It’s huge. That’s a huge thing to do.
DANI: That’s not widely known.
DANI: That can change. So, Move Your DNA is a fantastic book and anyone with a human body should read it. But just say I’m listening – right now, I’m at my desk, and I just want to know: you’re saying increase my shoulder girdle movement. What does that mean? So what can I do, just right now, at work?
KATY: Yes. With your bra on or off, your choice.
DANI: Well, I am in a cubicle, so I will keep it on.
KATY: Okay, party pooper. All right. No vacuums in your cubicle? Anyway. So hold your hands behind you; grip your hands behind you and link your fingers behind you, and if you’re sitting and you don’t want to stand up because it’d be too conspicuous that you’re listening to a podcast at work, let your arms fall over your head. So you have to bend forward. You can either just while sitting in your chair let your chest go over the top of your legs and let it come over, or – I’m going to stand up, you can stand up and let it go all the way over – ah, so good.
DANI: My shoulder girdle needs a lot of work.
KATY: There’s a lot of people in this studio audience on their backs not doing this exercise. It’s weird. It’s even weirder that we’re talking about them like they’re not here.
DANI: Some of ‘em are doing it.
KATY: Some. So a lot of people have done this stretch, right? And if you feel like you can’t get to your hands, like my shoulders are so tight –
DANI: So she’s got her hands linked behind her –
KATY: Yeah, my hands are linked behind me like I’m weaving them. Grab a strap or a belt or a scarf or a broom, or anything that lets you get your hands closer together. Then, if you did make it to your hands, though, switch the hand=holding. Hold your hands the uncomfortable way and do it again, because it changes.
DANI: I’m doing it right now, it feels good.
KATY: All right.
DANI: And so that’s something that you could do right now.
KATY: Yeah! Anyone.
DANI: Which anyone – which is awesome – you don’t have to have, like, breasteses. I mean, everyone needs to work more on the shoulder girdle.
KATY: Everyone needs a healthier shoulder girdle.
DANI: So you could do that and then read the book and get further into other things you can do. I mean, you shouldn’t just go out and hang on monkey bars if you haven’t done –
KATY: Yeah, everything’s step-wise.
DANI: This is a good first step to do it, and to realize where you’re at with that. And that’s it. That’s it; you’ve got us stretched, and knowing now that the health of your breasts isn’t just nutrition or what you’re putting on them, it’s a whole body thing. It’s the movement that happens and the loads we place on them. So this was fun.
KATY: If you found that informative, then look for our next episode, which is the –
DANI: The balls show.
KATY: The balls show.
DANI: So dangly bits for both boys and girls, we cover it all.
KATY: And everyone in between. Or we shouldn’t cover it all! Dang it! Dang it!
DANI: That’s what we’ll talk about! Thanks for listening – have a good walk!
KATY: All right, see ya.