Under Pressure – Podcast Episode #83

Calluses. Most of us have them, but do you really know why they are? Katy makes this mailbag a one-question-only show by peeling some research down to the layers that answer the question, giving us some valuable insight which is more than just skin deep. Turns out, we’ve all got skin in this game.

Overview

0:01:13 What went on at Katy's plastic-free karaoke party – Jump to section

0:05:08 An update on Dani's new adventure – Jump to section

0:07:08 Why this mailbag episode is about ONE question only – Jump to section

0:30:05 Why calluses are not really "dead" – Jump to section

0:33:40 The fact about skin that blew Katy's mind – Jump to section

0:43:50 Quick social media break update – Jump to section

Podcast Transcript

Music

KATY: (sings) On the road again... I just can't wait to get on the road again...

Music Fade

KATY: It's the Katy Says podcast. Where today I am talking movement, the tiny details, the larger issues, and why movement matters with the mystery guest. It is a very good friend of mine, and yours... Dani Hemmat!

DANI: Waaaaa!

KATY: The crowd goes wild! I'm Katy Bowman, biomechanist, author of Move Your DNA.

DANI: And I'm Dani Hemmat, a chronically curious movement teacher and sometimes podcast host.

KATY: Dani! I miss you! How are you?

DANI: I miss you too. I'm good, man! I'm having an awesome summer. I'm on a social media break. I got a new paddle board. I got a new dog. So it's like what else do I need. How are you?

KATY: I am, I'm hoarse.

DANI: Yeah, you are!

KATY: Can you hear my voice? I know it kind of always sounds like this.

DANI: But we haven't been talking. Who else would you be talking to who made you hoarse?

DANI: Oh. What did you sing?

KATY: I sing what I always sing. Nine to Five by Dolly Parton.

DANI: I always sing that one too! No way!

KATY: Really?

DANI: Oh my gosh, I love that song!

KATY: And I always dedicate it to either the person who has ... who works the hardest at a nine to five job or the person who is a total freelancer who ends up working 3 times a month.

DANI: Right.

KATY: And I always sing Eminem, Lose Yourself.

DANI: Awesome.

KATY: Which is my cardio for the week. It is the hardest ... it is the hardest song.

DANI: Oh my gosh...

KATY: In that, I always sing Jackson with Michael, my husband...

DANI: Are we talking the Johnny Cash, June and Johnny Cash Jackson? Love that song.

KATY: Yeah. I'm trying to think if I sing anything else.

DANI: I might go to your backyard karaoke parties. You've got some good music going.

KATY: It was an auction item at a fundraiser and I bought it, because who was gonna want a karaoke party? And I just threw it up there on a pinboard, you know, people give you a gift certificate, you know this thing that you're not going to use right now but when there is a potential good time? It's my good times board. And my sister just turned 40 so I threw her a surprise back yard karaoke party. And it was amazing. It was amazing. And I had sent the catalog to everyone ahead of time so they could pick the songs that they wanted instead of that high pressure.

DANI: Oh! That was smart.

KATY: It was like browse. And here's the thing. Talking about, like, this could go back to if you're looking for family time winter indoor events, I highly suggest you can go to... I think it's called the karaokechannel.com, and you can just pay for a subscription to the 14,000 songs that they have which is like $19.95 a month, and you just buy yourself 30 days worth of songs and you just set up, if you have a mic, you don't even have to have a mic but if you have a mic you can set it up and it scrolls on your computer screen. It'll scroll the lyric. I mean this party was all ages. It was kids, we had kids up there rocking the house with songs that I had never heard before. There was one 7 year old that wanted to sing Ebony and Ivory as a duet. I sang that with her because no one would do the duet and she was like, "I love that..." And it was so quiet and they just ... it was just amazing. Everyone was fully transfixed and we also, it was 60 people. We do not have, as minimalists, we don't have dishes for everybody and we're doing also participating in plastic free July. Are you familiar with that?

DANI: I am not.

KATY: It's like a... you can look it up. It's like a screen free week challenge. It's plastic free July. Meaning you're just hyper mindful of not consuming plastic during this week. No plastic fork...

DANI: Straws.

KATY: No plastic lids on your cups. No straws. And it makes you, again, just a super mindful thing. So we're like, well we can't - we try not to do disposable anything, but for a giant party you kind of go well how else are we supposed to do it and I was like, "We have to think harder." We have to stack harder. So one, we put everything that we had plus two buckets for washing your own dishes so you could wash a dish and put it back so someone else could use it again, or you could use your same dish again.

DANI: Well that was ...

KATY: With a drying rack outside. And then we just sent out a ... "bring your own, bring a basket of your own place settings." And everyone did.

DANI: Smart.

KATY: And it was a no trash... 60 people. Michael goes did you look in the trash can? There were 3 inches of trash.

DANI: That's great!

KATY: So those are my hacks.

DANI: That's very smart. Sounds like fun.

KATY: Well it was fun but...

DANI: It's worth being hoarse for...

KATY: It sounds like this so you're gonna have to put up...

DANI: That's alright. I miss your voice so it's ok. Even though it sounds weird right now.

KATY: Oh well you are having an adventure. You wanna share it?

KATY: And it's a nature school right?

DANI: No, it's a school school but they have, like, I walked in, I was kind of worried about having an office job after all these years of teaching movement and freelancing, but I walked in and they had a sit/stand desk ready for me. So that was cool. So I just brought in my tray of rocks and my half domes. And all the kids have, it's a small school, like 100 kids, All the kids can have wobble stools. They have tables that transition to standing tables.

KATY: That's great.

DANI: They spend 3 days out in the field, so they're not in the classroom super often.

KATY: So it's like a hybrid.

DANI: It's like a hybrid. And then every year they go out for a week of wilderness orientation at the very beginning of the school year. So it's really an awesome place and I'm pretty happy about it.

KATY: I like that.

DANI: Yeah.

KATY: I like that every school has the potential to become a nature school.

DANI: RIght.

KATY: Every school has the potential to become a more dynamic learning space, whether it's through desk wear or just a nature agenda.

DANI: Yeah.

KATY: Very cool. I'm so happy for you.

DANI: And they just have outdoor spaces so if it's nice the kids can go outside to the outdoor classrooms and hang out there. So yeah, it's very cool and I'm very proud of it and pretty happy.

KATY: I love it.

DANI: Thank you.

KATY: Congratulations sometimes podcast host and thank you for coming back

DANI: my pleasure

KATY: and doing some mailbag work for me. And as long as it works for Dani, we're just gonna keep bringing you back in. These mail bags are so fun and it's just fun to chat...

DANI: Such good questions.

DANI: Oh my gosh.

KATY: It was like the old fashioned... I used to do this a lot. This was a habit of mine, and there's some quote out there about, I don't, I'm choosing not to know certain things because if I know about them I have to think about them. That's the obligation that comes with knowing something. And so I often, people say, "Have you read the work of this?" or "Have you seen this?" And I'm like, no, because I'm at capacity. And because I can't know everything and I've chosen to know what I know and keep working on that, there's just a physical limit.

DANI: Right.

KATY: So, anyway. The way I like learning more organically is when we get a question about the body of work that I'm most already robust in practice in, to develop it or expand it a little bit. And that's what this question did. So, from this mail bag, we're gonna have time to do one question.

DANI: Yeah, of all those questions: one question. Well, I expect one serious awesome answer.

KATY: Well, it is. The thing is, this question, in just the simple process of looking into this questions, I found one of the things that I'm most excited about knowing about the body that I didn't know before.

DANI: Oh that's cool.

KATY: So that's going to be cool. And I wonder it if it will also be exciting to you. So...the question. What is the question?

DANI: What is the question. All right. Can you provide a reference for the assertion in Move Your DNA that a callus is getting better blood flow than ordinary skin? If this is so, why doesn't a callus bleed when it is cut or shaved off? Ok, before you answer this, I have to say I saw this question and I loved it immediately, which is probably why I put it first on our list. Because I have always wondered this too. And we actually get variations on this question frequently. I cannot wait to hear what you say. Because I gotta know.

KATY: Well, and I've answered this questions before live, but when I'm live, I don't have my books around me and you're in the middle of - you're standing in front of a bunch of people so you give a quick answer and you don't really go back and check what you wrote, so this was a time that I got to - I had books in front of me, I'm like, so what exactly did I say. So, the line that in question is on page 104 in Move Your DNA or I don't know what page if you have an e-book. It says quote: "The callus that will develop from walking outside will have the best circulation and the most cellular activity of any part of the foot." That, well, let me go to the second part. I've also noted this, I noted this phenomenon first in Every Woman's Guide to Foot Pain Relief which has now been reissued as Simple Steps to Foot Pain Relief. And that's on page 16, and that text says: (clears throat) me me me me me...

DANI: Maybe just sing it. It'll all be ok.

KATY: Oh exactly! "Calluses are areas of the skin that have better circulation than other areas."

DANI: That's where I first read that. Was in the Simple Steps.

KATY: Right.

DANI: And I just remember, you know, my mind was just blown because it didn't make sense to me. I always thought that was the dead part...

KATY: Well.

DANI: ...of the foot.

KATY: Oh my gosh we're gonna talk about dead skin. I'm so excited!

DANI: I know right?

KATY: So, they're both poorly written sentences and I just read a Mark Twain quote that said like, "Beware of death by a misprint when you're reading a health book" or something like that. So this is, this is like a panda eats shoots and leaves types of things. calluses are the area of the skin that have better circulation than other areas of the skin - so first of all, like in Move Your DNA, the fact that is says that a callus has better circulation and more cellular activity than any other part of the foot. That's not right. It should say foot skin. But it only says foot. So it should say foot skin. And then technically, I'm going to go through layers of the skin because it's a semantics issue and I want to be super technical. But you will see the degree of explanation the technicality requires but, more accurate it would say the skin beneath the callus, the layers of skin beneath the layer of skin that we would refer to when built up to a certain point is a callus, have better circulation than other area of the skin or non-callused areas of the skin. I will make those changes in subsequent print.

DANI: Oh cool.

KATY: So that's what happens when you ask a really great technical question like that, it's like oh yeah, I could have made better word choices here to make it clear because the upper layers of your skin, or the outer layers, the part that's less deep, the part that's superficial is your epidermis. The epidermis is avascular meaning it does not have a blood supply.

DANI: So avascular. A-v-a-s-c-u-l-a-r.

KATY: Avascular. You have to say the word after you spell it if you're gonna win the spelling bee.

DANI: I'm sorry.

KATY: Yes. So dead is the word and it's always, "I thought they were dead". So I don't know where to start first. Calluses don't bleed when you cut them because the entire epidermis is avascular. It does not have a blood supply. So I think that why the confusion is, is what I'm thinking when I write better circulation to the callus, which is, like where does the callus start? It's like one of those types of questions. So before we talk about it, let me just explain skin very quickly. I mean as quickly as I can which is not quickly at all. So you've got the outer layers which is the epidermis and below that you have the dermis. In the dermis is the blood supply. The epidermis has 5 layers to itself as well. So the avascular portion is 5 layers. Below that is the dermis and I'm not a skin expert and so that's why it took me so long to work through all those articles because this is half reading like a foreign language to me. It's very complicated. But anyway, the more you learn about something the more you realize how complex it is and it's like oh my goodness.

DANI: So the epidermis is 5 layers?

KATY: Epidermis has 5 layers.

DANI: Wow. Already I'm more educated than I was this morning. Thank you.

KATY: Well and I think that it depends on what you're reading, right? If you're reading something simple like my book, which is a lay person's book not about skin. It just throws out that the callus area of the skin has better circulation. It doesn't talk about what that actually means because what does better circulation actually mean? But anyway, the bottom layer of the epidermis is the basal cell. That's the layer that is generating cells. It is generating cells. I don't know if dead is the right term for that layer that is generating cells. I will get ... cells not sales. I will get back to why dead, where dead probably came from. Just remind me.

DANI: Ok.

KATY: So you've got the basal layer that is creating cells and it's the proliferation area. The next layer, and so this is where naming things like, things are named when something about them usually changes. Like how we have named things is usually based on some visual difference. And so the cells, as they start, so we're only in the epidermis right now, and at the base of the epidermis is also where the mechanical sensors are. So you've got the base cells which are measuring the stresses to all the layers above it. And maybe even below it. I don't know. If it's taking in external data, then it's measuring how much the skin is being pushed or pulled. And that is sending the signal for generation. In areas that don't have much movement the proliferation rate is one thing. In areas that do have a lot of movement - areas that are under greater pressure or shear or tension, being moved around a lot - that signals hyperproliferation which means the rate of cell growth is greater.

DANI: Ok. Yes.

KATY: So as those cells, those cells have keratin which is a particular fiber, and as it moves up through the layers the layers are made of the cells differentiating ... and I don't know if these terms are exactly right - I'm not a cellular biologist but like in general the cells are, they're changing and as they go through their process of change they're pushed up by the layer of growth that's beneath them. And so each one of these 5 layers is really just the layer because of what process the cell is - what features the cells have. Like how much keratin the cells have at this point - it's k-e-r-a-t-i-n if you want to look it up. And I'll put sources in the show notes if you want to go look them up.

DANI: Ok.

KATY: And it loses, it has a nucleus at the beginning but by the time it gets to the end stage, by the time it makes its way up to the stratum corneum, the outside edge, it no longer has a nucleus. So it lost it nucleus so the lack of nucleus is perhaps what one stage is called and then as the keratin is going through its process of change every time it changes visually, that's a different layer. So that's what those multiple layers are within it. It is just the cells being pushed up from the bottom and moving outward. At the same time, skin's being sloughed off always, right? You're always losing skin. And what I learned is a callus is not only hyperproliferation... an area, a callused area of the skin ... so you're stratum corneum which is the most outside of the dermis, surrounds your entire body. Everyone has a stratum corneum. I mean most everyone unless there's some trauma.

DANI: Say it one more time, it's so cool.

KATY: Strata is layer corneum is horn, hard. It's the horned layer.

DANI: Cool.

KATY: Where was I.

DANI: So everyone has a stratum corneum.

KATY: Yes. So a callus is not a growth upon the stratum corneum. It's just a thicker layer of the stratum corneum. And also what I just learned of the stratum lucidum which I think is the layer right below it is it's all clear, which we'll figure out why that's important a little bit later. So in addition to being hyperproliferation in a callus, the adhesion molecules are greater in those layers that are being mechanically stressed more so than other layers. So it's not only that there are simply more cells, the cells are more connected to the surrounding cells.

DANI: Ok, that's what adhesion molecules...

KATY: That's what adhesion molecules are. So it makes that area less flexible and less penetrable.

DANI: Oh.

KATY: Right. Like that's why, like I'm walking around my backyard the other day, I get things stuck in my foot all of the time. I mean I walk on things that are pokey and things that have soft prongs just get bent that would have normally gone in the softer areas of my skin; the less callused areas of my skin, would go in. Now those just get deformed because my skin tension is greater than what they can penetrate. It's less penetrable. And ...

DANI: Your stratum corneum is a force to be reckoned with.

KATY: Exactly. But also when things do go in... it is penetrated a lot by like a goat head.

DANI: Oh goats are horrible. That's the worst.

KATY: Yes, but, I don't feel them. I don't feel them. I'm aware that, like I can feel the pressure that it is sticking in my foot. I can see that it's sticking in my foot, but I don't have a pain to it sticking in my foot. Because I don't know because I think the mass is thicker to where ever it has to go to perhaps to interact with a particular, create a particular signal. I don't know but that's my experience being one who steps on lots of things.

DANI: Lucky you.

KATY: So anyway, that's what a callus is. Ok. So a callus is not really a thing. I mean you can define a border around an area of the stratum corneum but that's all it is. It's a relatively thicker stronger area. It's a thicker stronger area of the stratum corneum compared to the stratum corneum that surrounds it. Now vascular wise... so I recognize that the writing was poor right off and I'll make that change. Thank you. But I also wanted to get a reference for it because that's what she initially asked for.

DANI: Mm-hmm.

KATY: So I went, I first learned this when I was writing my first book, and I was writing it with my friend who was also a podiatrist at the time and this was kind of common knowledge just through our university. I, when we were there talking about it as I was putting it in, I remember reading something that said it explicitly but I don't know what that thing was so I was like, "Well I'll just go find it." So I went to go find it and I can find nothing that actually measures the vascularization of a callused area versus a non-callused area. So, you know, when you're going to school the bulk of your education is coming through - I mean you're reading a textbook but the bulk of it is what's being told to you by your professors. And when they were learning, some of it came from textbooks but the bulk of it was coming from from what was their professors. So there are lots of common knowledge things that you don't actually know that there's a source of and you kind of wade through them later on and this is one of those things. What is known, and I think that this is where it comes from and there could be other data on it that was done way earlier on ... like so much of the blood flow and circulation to the foot is from the 20s and 30s. Really early. They've stopped really investigating the baseline human physiology because they think that they know it all.

DANI: Wow.

KATY: I mean that's commonly expressed that pretty much all anatomical discoveries have already been made is the general thought process.

DANI: Mm.

KATY: So when they find something new like when they found that the brain had a lymphatic system, that was actually a statement. Like, "We thought all the basic anatomy research had been done." But here's how, so when you have a callus, a callus is a place of extra pressure on the foot. When you step on it, so when you step on your foot the place with the greatest amount of pressure has the greatest blood flow because the way your body responds to pressure is like you're bearing down on a part of your body. In that moment of bearing down on your body, your body sends in extra blood to that area. Kind of like putting on a weight belt. Like to increase its pressure so that you don't crush the structures within there.

DANI: Oh.

KATY: So every time you step on an area of pressure, your body moves blood to that area. Thus a callus will always have, will always be the area of skin that has better blood flow to that area as you are moving over it. Which is why the callus is there. And then also the callus is the area of, kind of the greatest cellular growth compared to other areas of the skin because it's having ... because of the pressure, it's having to hyper-proliferate. Right? It's extremely active. What are the effects of the growth on the blood flow? I don't know. Like at the most basic level if something is extra active - an area is extra active - that is going to pull extra resources to fuel that activity. But that's the dermis that we're talking about. So, that's always been my basic answer to the email. Yes, there's no blood flow in calluses. I'm talking about the callused area of the foot. The vascularization of the skin of the callused area. Which includes the avascular part but also the non-avascular. So those references are linked in the show notes so that you can see how a callus...

DANI: Excellent.

KATY: Now what's interesting is when people have... calluses are often recommended being removed in people who have diabetes because that mechanism of stepping on a pressured area and having the blood come in where the vasodilation happens mechanically in response to the pressure on the load?

DANI: Yeah?

KATY: Doesn't happen in people with diabetes.

DANI: Oh!

KATY: That's one of the hallmarks. So a callus can be an area where you are just bearing down on a part of your body that eventually can damage those tissues ...

DANI: Ok.

KATY: and become a potential sore later on. So that's why we cut them off. I can't read anything about a callus online besides maybe one or two articles explaining mechanism that don't refer to a callus as a pathology.

DANI: Interesting.

KATY: It is almost exclusively viewed as a pathology. Nowhere is it mentioned like the benefits of a well-distributed foot callus. Or maybe we should talk about it differently. Because it's not a callus that we're after. We're after a thick corneum. It's hyper-keratinized so it is a callus but the callus is so ingrained with the pathology and anything that you read that the thing that I'm talking about which is the entire surface of your foot being thick, we need a different term for whatever that is.

DANI: Yeah.

KATY: I'll just call it a fully distributed callus. But that's what we're after. We are not after...

DANI: We've talked about this a little bit before, calluses. And I think I mentioned that one of your teachers and our friend, he climbs trees all the time. And I felt his hands and you know those calluses that you get if you hand from a metal bar, a chin up bar, whatever.

KATY: Those three dots.

DANI: Yeah, you get those calluses like right underneath where your knuckles attach to your hand. But I was touching his hands because we were talking about climbing trees and he had like a fine layer of callus over his entire hand. He didn't have any huge 3 dots. It was just this perfectly evenly distributed layer of vascularized tissue. And it was so cool. I'd never felt anything like that. But there was so much variation in what he was using his hands ... you know so many surfaces and so many different pressures, that it created this perfectly even layer of callus. And it was a trip.

KATY: Yeah. So it's a layer. It's a layer that we're after. It's one of those things like the benefits of circulation, I mean certainly as far as cellular behavior, that's in response to load, and so is the circulatory benefit. So you're not after trying to build a callus so that you can sit and just enjoy palms and the soles of your feet with better circulation. The circulation comes from when you're using them, right? So my whole point with this is that callused areas are areas like they're not ill areas. They're areas that are well vascularized and very dynamic and growing and changing.They're not ill spots on your body. However, in a context where there is not very much movement at all, they become an issue because when your pressure is in such a tiny spot highly repetitively, then you end up, kind of getting one deep core of thick tissue around soft tissue. Now you have a stress riser and now it's making an injury. Now that core is deforming or tearing other tissues. Not only when you use it but eventually maybe crushing the blood vessels below. So that is, I think the answer to the question. The question is the callused area circulates better simply because, in a person without this particular peripheral arterial disease, because when you step on it, the pressure, like the body's response is to pull blood and infuse blood into that area. So that area is well circulated. Not the callus itself. There's no extra blood vessels growing into the callus.

KATY: Ok so that's the next piece. So anyway, I wanted to make sure that I've answered the question and that you'll agree that I've answered the question. So you have the source for the pressure and the mechanism of how a callus would infuse an area with blood flow, an area of the skin. This is how the skin behaves under pressure. And also what a callus is: avascular. And then I'll change a text so it reads less confusing. And when you make changes to a book there's a particular layout. So I can't really ever add a paragraph to a book because that means the entire book needs to be re-indexed and it shifts.

DANI: Oh. I never thought of that.

KATY: Oh yeah. You can't just add to a book. Every picture and every box lines up so you basically have to re-do the book anytime you do more than just change a couple key words. But that being said, I will adjust that with as minimal words as I can to make it more accurate and less confusing.

DANI: Ok. Thank you.

KATY: Now, I started thinking about the skin being avascular. And in reading a copious amount of literature on the layers of the skin I came to more recent pieces that I will also link in the show notes that said the upper layers are absolutely not dead. Like they used "dead" in air quotes. It has no nucleus and it's avascular and so that's why I think "dead"... so like there's five layers. You could say that the... they say that the epidermis is dead. They say. The epidermis is dead but really you've got an active basal level that's proliferating and you have nuclei and different organelles up through a couple of the layers. So if we were just to say that alive meant that it was active or had a nucleus then we would have to say that the epidermis as a total isn't dead. So I use the word "dead" also.

DANI: Right.

KATY: I'm going to have to go back and change the places I used "dead" in both, I mean, in any of the books with skin. So I think I used the word dead in the foot book, the first foot book. The Simple Steps to Foot Pain Relief. I don't think I used it in any of the others. Like, man, I've got all kinds of edits. No. So the first two layers are living because they're actually doing something and then the other three are dead. But then I'm reading this other stuff and it's like these layers are not dead. These layers are responding and changing their behavior. There's a moisturizing factor that's nourishing the upper cells that's coming from not the bottom two layers in response to use and load and so I would say that the sentiment is that they're not, it's not actually dead at all. It's just not connected to a blood supply directly. So it's avascular. And the cells don't have nuclei, but they are active and they are doing something. They are not dead at all. And then are you ready for this? This is the thing that has blown my mind. So these very important, very active, non-vascular cells are doing. So the problem that that creates for me is, you can't do without an energy supply. Right?

DANI: Right.

DANI: Yeah.

KATY: I can't even stand it... your skin extracts oxygen from the air.

DANI: What?

KATY: Your skin breathes.

DANI: So it can't be dead.

KATY: It's breathing.

DANI: Oh my gosh.

KATY: Your skin. So this... I can't even like my mind... my mind is blown.

DANI: Elaborate.

KATY: So your skin operates very similar to a tree.

DANI: Oh.Cool.

KATY: I'm gonna link to this in the show notes so you can verify it for yourself. Don't take the KatySays word for it cuz you never know how poorly I've been writing or saying some things, but.

DANI: Yeah.

KATY: But you can consult the authors of: "The cutaneous uptake of atmospheric oxygen contributes significantly to the oxygen supply of human dermis and epidermis." So your skin is breathing. It's exchanging oxygen directly with the air. So I think before the understanding was the upper layers are dead and nonactive and so the diffusion of the blood in the dermis was enough to nourish maybe the basal, like the active level, but all other levels were just in the process of dying and they didn't need anything. So this makes so much more sense to me because the skin is the farthest thing away from the oxygen that you've taken into your body. Like it's like the oxygen would have to travel the farthest to make it to your skin. Does that make sense?

DANI: Yes.

KATY: The blood vessels are the deepest and as you go up there's all these other tissues that are eating which means your skin would get the dregs. But your skin is your greatest defense against your environment. So the fact that you're greatest defense would be on the dregs made no sense to me. This makes so much sense to me. You know, the fact that your greatest defense is dead also makes no sense to me. So yeah, this is amazing that your skin can uptake almost enough oxygen to tend to itself that it's in a relationship directly with the air that it is placed in. Which then, of course, brings up all the other questions about what we do to our skin.

DANI: I know, right? My mind's just like reeling after you said that.

KATY: Well it's an organ right?

DANI: Well yeah.

KATY: An organ that's been placed in a particular environment and that environment is, I mean there's scars and tattoos and clothing and topicals...

DANI: lotions...

KATY: ...sun exposure, lack of sun exposure, movement of the hairs on your skin. Like how does all of that play, I don't know. The fact that this was almost buried. And when I read it I was like, are you saying that skin breathed? And then I type in "does skin breathe" and then the first 100 things are like don't be ridiculous, that's just a, like your skin doesn't breathe and there's all these credible sources that are like, you can't breathe through your skin. I'm like, that's not what I asked. I didn't ask if your body is pulling in oxygen for your body through your skin. I'm asking, does your skin get its oxygen on its own. And it does. And that is blowing my mind. And I would have never found it if it wasn't for this question going through.

DANI: Then you need to thank Emily.

KATY: I do. Emily from the bottom, bottom, bottom of my heart, soul, and mind, and skin. Like if I, like to me this is one of those big, it's another big shift of recognizing one, a mechanism of nature, right, which is generally understood to be non-human stuff, as being fully activated in my body right now. Like it just makes me that much closer to other non-human, non-animal life even. It's like more closely related to plants and you can see the similarity in our behavior. It just, it makes the role of skin as related to natural movement and temperature, it opens up so much more about that. And not that there isn't anything else even known about it, but just the fact that it's there, opens my mind tremendously. And there's nothing I enjoy more than having my mind opened. So again, thank you for that. But here's the other thing; the next thing I'm thinking of, is a callused are more oxygen rich because there's more mass there? That would mean that like if a callus has more to keep alive, is it actually pulling in more oxygen. So I don't understand the mechanism. There's gotta be some, it's going to be... I mean you're dealing with oxygen uptake, like a gas expert or someone who could explain the physical components of skin and what is actually skin occlusion mean? Like how, if I cover my skin with cotton, that's totally different than covering my skin with Saran Wrap.

DANI: Right.

KATY: So we have materials that breathe. That was like, oh, ok. Like I breathable clothing now makes me, I can see the mechanical role of that a little bit more, right? So it's just blowing my mind. So anyway, I don't get this or really most of anything frankly.

DANI: Laughs.

KATY: But I'm interested in, like does oil occlude it? Like if I put oil on is that depriving an area or is there a certain amount of absorption and then once it's absorbed it facilitates more oxygen? Like I don't know any of those things but some really smart person out there, go look at that and then come back and let us know.

DANI: Yeah. I mean there's so many things to think about with that. This is definitely not a dead end because you just think about well if I spend all day inside a building as opposed to, you know outside, like air quality issues and...

KATY: Well just think of anything that affects your ability to extract oxygen from the air with your mouth, those could also be at play through the oxygen of your skin. So like if you're area where the air quality is very low, they're also saying that they think that this has a lot to do with flight or altitude physiology. You submerge yourself regularly, your skin isn't able to extract what it needs as a defense barrier so the overall demand on being in thin air environments is very high. Two fold, not only what you're pulling in your body but what you're able to, how your skin is able to support itself. So, I was just like oh my gosh.

DANI: Wow. Man.

KATY: This is why I don't like to know about things because it occupied 16 hours of my life. And I don't know if my life, if I don't utilize the information personally, those 16 hours weren't, you know, worth it just for the act of discovery. I'm personally nourished by the act of discovery but that's not, it cuts into my actual nourishment. But I took my pants off. I did it outside at the computer. I was like taking off my clothes. I can implement getting more oxygen right now. Let's just get naked and so I have to use it. In order to justify taking so much of my life to learn about it, I have to start using it right away. So I'm just like I'm getting dressed differently. I'm looking at my skin tenderly going oh my gosh you've been breathing. And what happens when I have a ring on?

DANI: I didn't even think of that.

KATY: It goes on and on and on.

DANI: Wow. That's crazy. But thank you. I too love to have my mind opened. Everything is so interesting. Well done, Emily. I see you!

KATY: So, question answered you think?

DANI: Yes. You answered the question. And it's really cool that you're gonna do a revision in the next reprint. But you just had a reprint right?

KATY: It wasn't a reprint. It's just mostly to change the word from a callus to a callused are of the skin.

DANI: Ok.

KATY: But even that's challenging because does that mean... a callused area of the skin includes all the layers of it, including the hypodermis. Right? So, without getting into the layers of the skin, I'm not sure an easier way to say it, except the area, the area of skin that is callused or, I don't know. Maybe some editor can maybe help me with just how to say that the depth of skin, the area of skin, to many people, the area of skin that is callus will be limited to the stratum corneum. They will not see that the callused skin is the depth of skin that is callused. And that's what I'm speaking of. So I might just have to add the depth of skin that is callused. But that's very confusing. And when I write like that, those are often removed because this is difficult to parse without three other paragraphs explaining it.

DANI: Yeah.

KATY: So sometimes I just let it go. When I've answered this live, I say, I'm talking about the layers of skin deep to the callus as being more vascularized. Not the extra density of a callus. But anyway, it's my job to figure that out. Not yours. Either way, a revision will be made and hopefully, a better understanding is held by all who listen to the podcast.

DANI: Well it is for me so I'm assuming it will be for everybody else too. I got another question.

KATY: Do it.

KATY: Great.

DANI: Are you enjoying yourself?

KATY: Tremendously.

DANI: Excellent.

KATY: Tremendously. What about you?

DANI: I love it. I love it.

KATY: Have you found anything lacking from being off social media? Like, have you noticed a decrease in community.

DANI: No.

KATY: Business.

DANI: No.

KATY: I haven't noticed any decrease at all.

DANI: No. No, it's not. And actually with my new gig, I am in charge of the social media but it's different because I'm less, you know, I'm just getting on and getting off for my job. It'll be nice to have those parameters and leave it at that.

KATY: Yeah.

DANI: Yeah, it's great. It's really, truly the way to do summer. I love it. Well, that's it, man, thanks for that and thanks for all that work. And thanks Emily for the great question. And thank you all for listening. I love the sweet letters that we get and I just really, well we, appreciate all the listeners. And all the feedback. You guys are awesome.

KATY: Yeah. You're great.

DANI: I'll be back for the occasional mail bag. Say Mailbag... I love it. We'll be mail-baggin' every once in a while too. SO for more information, books, and online exercise classes, you can find Katy Bowman at NutritiousMovement.com and you can find more from me, Dani Hemmat, at MoveYourBodyBetter.com. Thanks for listening.

KATY: Bye.

DANI: Bye.

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VOICE OVER: Hopefully you find the general information in this podcast informative and helpful. But it is not intended to replace medical advice and should not be used as such.

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