Click on NOTE CATEGORIES to browse by topic, read through the entire archives, or type a topic in the search box.Biomechanist Katy Bowman talks to biologist Jeannette Loram about dog movement. This discussion stemmed from witnessing a balance ball therapy session for dogs. Just like modern humans, modern dogs now require physical therapy. In this episode Katy and Jeannette discuss how to use Katy’s ‘movement nutrition’ framework and apply it to your furry friends.
Katy and Jeannette discuss the evolution of dogs and the difference in movement experience between free-ranging ancestral dogs compared with today’s urban canines. They discuss how human chosen pacing is not necessarily the most comfortable for dogs since their most efficient gait pattern is a trot not a walk. They discuss the importance of meaningful movement for a dog, emphasizing the importance of smell and play as ‘command-free’ movement. They also talk about the importance of mentoring movement for dogs, especially safety skills such as swimming.
Finally they talk about their own dogs and their favourite —and often quirky—activites from climbing trees to log dragging and how dogs and humans can enhance each other’s movement diets.
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OVERVIEW
(time codes are approximate)
00:01:35 - The Dynamic Collective (Jump to section)
00:02:10 - Let’s Talk Dogs (Jump to section)
00:07:00 - What is a Dog? Dog Movement Diets Over Time (Jump to section)
00:16:40 - Movement Categories for Dogs (Jump to section)
00:29:30 - Listener Question - Morton’s Toe (Jump to section)
00:34:45 - Back to Dogs - Their Feet (Jump to section)
00:39:40 - Swimming (Jump to section)
00:45:50 - Two More Dog Movements (Jump to section)
LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW
Sedentary Animals - Podcast Episode #153
Dogs originate from now extinct wolves
Correct Toes - $5 discount with code: MYD-toes5
Swimming - Podcast Episode #162
Inside of a Dog Book by Alexandra Horowitz
SPONSORS: THE DYNAMIC COLLECTIVE
This episode of The Move Your DNA podcast is brought to you by The Dynamic Collective, a group of six companies that create products and services helping you to move more. The Dynamic Collective is:
Smart Playrooms:Design and products for active living indoors. Smart Playrooms is offering our listeners a 10% discount on monkey bars, rock wall panels, and rock wall holds with the code DNA10 valid until April 2025
Correct Toes: Anatomic silicone toe spacers and other foot rehabilitation tools. Correct Toes are offering our listeners a $5 discount on all purchases with the code myd-toes5 valid until April 2025
Movemate:World's first dynamic active standing board designed to make movement a natural part of your workday, without disrupting your workflow! Movemate is running a 15% Black Friday sale between November 29th and December 6th 2024 with the code MOVE
Peluva: Five-toe minimalist shoes that are functional and stylish. Peluva are offering our listeners 15% off their purchase with the code NUTRITIOUSMOVEMENT valid until April 2025
Wildling: Minimal footwear handmade from natural materials for toddlers, kids, and adults. Wildling is offering our listeners free shipping on all purchases until April 2025 with the code KATYWILDLINGS
Venn Design: Functional furniture for a balanced life - sit still less and move more
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
(Theme Music)
This is the Move Your DNA podcast, a show where movement science meets your every day life. I'm Katy Bowman, biomechanist, author, and dog lover. And I'm Jeannette Loram, biologist, movement teacher, and also a dog mom. Every body is welcome here. Let's get started.
(Music Fades)
KATY: All right. Welcome everybody. I, Katy B, released a new book earlier this year called My Perfect Movement Plan which broke down this idea of movement nutrition, looking at all the different types of movement that your body needs in order to be fully movement nourished. But Jeannette and I are both dog people. And we move with and we adore our dogs, so we thought it would be fun to share how we think about ... I guess a movement diet of our dogs. Is that right?
KATY: And I had done a podcast before about animal movement. And that episode focused a lot on chickens and then had a little bit about dogs. This time we're going to look at what's a dog perfect movement plan? What's a dog’s best movement plan if we had the ability to create that? But before we get started, I would like to talk a little bit about our new set of podcast sponsors: Our Dynamic Collective. The Move Your DNA podcast is supported by a group of companies that help us move more. The Collective is made up of: Smart Playrooms - they offer design and products for active living indoors, Peluva - Five-Toe minimalist shoes that are functional and stylish, Movemate - dynamic active standing boards, Wildling - minimal footwear handmade from natural materials, Correct Toes - anatomic silicone toe spacers, and Venn Design - functional furniture helping you move more. All right, let's talk dogs.
KATY: She's a Heeler. She's a Texas Heeler. So she's a Heeler/Shepherd mix, but very much a herding dog.
JEANNETTE: OK, and what are her favorite movement activities?
KATY: Oh, well Heelers are definitely bred for a lot of movement volume. So we do a lot of walking. I live in a rural space, and so not a lot of city walking but kind of, I would say, roaming or ranging over complex terrain. So we like that. She especially likes climbing steep hills, really using her dew claws. That's a big movement that she tends to ask us for on a regular basis.
JEANNETTE: So you were a perfect pair. You both love uphill.
KATY: You know what, Jeannette, that's right. We both really do like climbing and clambering. She likes balancing on logs. Those are the fun moves that she does. And then, of course, what she's really good at, and she seems to need daily is cutting. Cutting type movements that you would find if she was actually actively herding sheep or cattle. So we get that done with soccer balls. You can play soccer with her and she will stop it. As long as it's on the ground and not overhead, she's the best goalie ever. And sometimes we'll play with two balls - get them going at the same time which she really loves that. It's just agility work, you know.
JEANNETTE: Hmmm, yeah.
KATY: Lots of sprinting and full stop in a moment's notice and then leaping off to go in a completely different direction.
JEANNETTE: Yeah, that changing directions.
KATY: What about your dogs? What do you have and what do they like?
JEANNETTE: I have one dog at the moment and she is a lab-spaniel mix. She loves any type of walking, particularly woodland hills. She loves the beach too. She also likes ball games, but it has to be part of a game. You can't just throw a ball for her. She won't play in that way. But if we're playing cricket or rounders, we have to have a pile of tennis balls. And she's a fantastic fielder but she's not so good at giving it back. So she'll only give it back once we've thrown another one. But it's very interesting because she will only play if we're all playing the game. She's not one of these dogs where you can just stand still and throw a ball for.
KATY: She's like a teenager. She doesn't want your meaningless gesture.
JEANNETTE: That's right.
KATY: She's all "thanks for playing with me. Ok stop patronizing me." She wants to be involved.
JEANNETTE: That's right. And in fact she actually climbed out of a window once to play a game. She's that determined to play a game. She also has a very strange - she loves stones which is probably going to cause me a huge dental bill at some point. And what she really wants is to stand in the water and you to throw stones. She doesn't really want to catch them, she just likes the noise. It's very odd.
KATY: Heidi Mai does that too. And I don't know what it is. Heidi Mai will put her head and face in to pull a stone out.
JEANNETTE: Nellie will do the same. Once she has one stone, then she just keeps that one stone but she wants us to keep throwing. But she will do the same. She will put her head in the water, rummage around, and often she will find a stone that you've touched. Which amazes me.
KATY: That's right!
JEANNETTE: She can even pick out the stone that smells of you from under a foot of water.
KATY: While she's not smelling! I mean that's the other part of it. And I have thought about that. You're the perfect person to talk about this with. She will pull out the stone that we threw in. And so I'm wondering if there's a temperature - how sensitive? Because it's not smell.
JEANNETTE: Well it...
KATY: Or is it?
JEANNETTE: ...it could be. So dogs have, let me get this right, because the pronunciation of this word is funny. It's called a vomeronasal organ which is an additional scent organ. And I think that organ requires things to dissolve which is why they think that a dog's nose is wet.
KATY: Mmm.
JEANNETTE: So they smell with scent particles that are in air but they also need this. Which is why owners hate it, but dogs shove their nose into smelly things. And it's actually to get the dissolved elements...
KATY: They have to get the liquid smell basically in that.
JEANNETTE: That's right. So I wonder, in water, whether they can use that. Because it's so much easier for those molecules to dissolve and go into that organ, which sits anatomic within their nose structure, I think. So that could well be what they're using.
JEANNETTE: I know! It's amazing. Just fascinating. So should we get on to the question? Should we start with defining what a dog is? We all think we know what a dog is, but just that we're on a level...
KATY: You think you know what a dog is but I also thought that dogs only could smell through air. So what is a dog?
JEANNETTE: So I think it is worth ... people will say a dog's a wolf. But it's not really a wolf. It's a domesticated dog, so canine, that evolved from a now extinct wolf, actually. So the wolves and dogs share a common ancestor, but the population that dogs evolved from are now extinct. So that's a dog. So they rely on human beings for a good life. They're the first species that were ever domesticated by human beings. Maybe not "by" but somehow they became involved in a relationship with humans, whether it was sort of directed by humans or directed by dogs. Who knows.
KATY: A little bit of both.
JEANNETTE: Yeah. I always think it's interesting when we're thinking about a dog movement plan, as a lot of your work has been looking at hunter/gatherer populations. Sort of the lifestyle within which human beings have evolved. So it's also worth looking at dogs in that perspective, too.
KATY: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't think we can really have that conversation without thinking about lifestyle. And so I feel like for this conversation we're going to have to break down dog further into early dogs. So we're not talking about different genetics at this point but we are talking about radically different lifestyles. So it's the same way that we talk about humans: pre-agriculture humans, agriculture, post-industrial revolution. We have sort of that for dogs as well.
JEANNETTE: Absolutely.
KATY: So where would you set up the delineation of groups? How would you organize dogs? It's interesting, when we do that for agriculture, and we do that for the industrial revolution. We do that for the computer age. What are we actually looking at? We're looking at things that either... that really affected inputs. Dietary, and I would say movement. I don't know that everyone would know that they're talking about movement but I, for our conversations, I'm always making these marks to say there's a radically different set of movement lifestyle happening now. Or at least significantly different enough from the time before. So, the dogs - there's a dog diet now that a lot of dogs have. Also keeping in mind that a dog living in Manhattan or Seattle might be different than a dog in the hills of Scotland or even in rural Washington. Right?
JEANNETTE: And also rural Cambodia or... Because I think an important distinction for dogs is, a lot of dogs around the world are still free ranging to more of an extent than even a dog in rural Scotland and rural Washington is doing. So there's probably - there's lots of different categories.
KATY: There's going to be a lot of different categories and I think that there's many countries... I mean even in Central America where I am, dogs have a different relationship to people. They are pets. They are well cared for. But they are very much more like, "Go out and you do your dog thing during the day and just come home at night." And everyone in the culture understands that that's how dogs work. They're sort of people too and have their jobs.
JEANNETTE: That's right. And I think it would have been much more like that ... I mean my husband talks about where we live now and when he grew up dogs just wander around the village. So even quite recently. So it's probably even harder to create these timelines for dogs because there are so many different contemporary ways of being a dog as well as past ways of being a dog. But I think we can still say, like hunter/gatherer populations, there was a long history of dogs being part of a hunter/gatherer tribe. And then that all changed with agriculture. So I think we can still use those broad categories as being applicable to dog life.
KATY: Yeah and I also wanted to think about the broad categories of like, what are dog macros. When we think of the dogs also needing to nourish all their individual parts and then sort of like the broad strokes ways that they would get those needs done based on the tasks that a dog needs to accomplish in a day. Which is not that different than a human. They need to eat. They need to be able to travel long distances to be able to get enough food. They're also moving in a group. There's inter-relational movement. We'll call it shelter. They need their shelter and then they need to keep making more dogs. So it's not that different. And the reason I actually wanted to do this episode is because I saw on social media dogs in physical therapy.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: I saw dogs getting physical therapy on Bosus which are these tools that I will use in teaching gait for humans. They're kind of a half ball, so it wobbles on the bottom and has a solid top, to try to expose these dogs to unstable surfaces. And I just happen to, our dog had a litter of puppies, and got to watch these puppies develop their skills. And in making sure that they're developing walking, which we can talk more about later. Eventually, when I had them outside and we were in more wilderness areas, which was something we did with my own dog when she was young, watch them approach a log and not have a program to know how to interact with that log. And just standing in front of it, "I can't walk any farther." They just all came to this wall. And then mom comes trotting along and mom hops up on top of it and they're like, "Oh!" And then their hands are up and then there's the one sort of most curious, most go-go-go personality of the dogs and that puppy's got its third leg on there and they all try it and then that knowledge kind of goes through. And then to see them "Oh that was fun" and just want to go back and forth and hop up and down and develop that skill set to be able to do that movement. And so I could just see - I wonder how much of the way dogs are experiencing their physicality has a lot to do with poor movement diets overall. Because generally, and yes there's dog diets all over the world, but let's talk about the dog diet of many listeners here, it's going to be a mostly walking ... It's sort of this exercise model. I exercise once a day. I go out. It's the same mode all the time. And I think we need to talk about this. Because dog issues are expensive to have. And also your dog is part of your family. You might be interested in exploring this idea. I was hoping exploring the dog idea would make the human idea more accessible. And then also, I think your movement diet and your dog's movement diet are probably more lock step than you realize.
JEANNETTE: Yes.
KATY: And so by diversifying theirs you'll also diversify yours. So that's why I wanted to talk about it.
JEANNETTE: And I actually think people end up - we often think about a dog needing a walk. I think in general we think about dogs needing a walk more than we ourselves think about a walk, because it's so essential to them going out and they need to go to the bathroom and they need to do their dog thing. That actually you and your dog's health can be quite in lock-step.
KATY: And that's why, I mean, there's plenty of research on people with animals having better health overall. It's a little tricky though because do healthier people just go out and get animals? But I think that they really tease it out that there's something in companionship. There's something in yes, you feel more obligated to walk your dog than you do to walk yourself. I do want to caution people getting a dog solely for the purpose of hoping... I don't want to encourage that at all. But yes, I think it's sort of like when you have children. All of a sudden you're like, "What do they need?" I want to get them what they need. And because maybe we just tend to prioritize others over ourselves sometimes that it makes it easier to...
JEANNETTE: Carve out that time.
KATY: ... carve out the time for them. And it's interesting too, I'm also thinking, we're at the point of dog physical therapy. This is amazing that we're at this point. But I guess we can say the same thing for humans in the sense that we've gotten so far away from baseline inputs that we'll need: walking lessons, squatting lessons, just those basic movements. So the dogs - we're in this together. We're all in this together.
KATY: So what do dogs do? What are the movement categories of a dog?
JEANNETTE: Well, I think they are adapted for running and walking without a shadow of a doubt - and long distances. And at the high they are very aerobically competent. They have a very large aerobic scope, meaning they have the capacity to increase their metabolic output almost more than anything else. So dogs need to go fast, not all the time. But definitely walking, trotting, running are foundational for a dog.
KATY: Right. And also you have to go back and listen to our previous podcast on walking and talking about different locomotion. And with dogs, I think another thing that is important to know, and there's a lot of different breeds. We haven't talked about the fact that different breeds have sort of been tinkered with to the point that some of this doesn't apply. But dogs have a walk. But when we talk about dogs moving over ground for an extended period of time, their walk is often not the baseline gait that they choose.
JEANNETTE: That's right.
KATY: A trot is a dog's most efficient way of covering ground. Because they are roamers. They are, when we talk about ancestral humans needing to walk long distances, dogs do that and more. That's sort of their baseline. But their baseline gait is a trot. And I think it's also important to remember that dogs, now, I get a lot of emails from people, especially when they have young toddlers and they're saying having this toddler is kind of driving me crazy because I can't walk - I'm crawling along at this toddler pace and it doesn't feel good on my body and it's frustrating. I want to go fast. That's a dog's sole experience. For many dogs who are harnessed... now imagine your toddler has their hands around your neck and is holding you back at that particular pace. We're often walking much slower than a dog's baseline way of moving over ground. So they're having to physically restrain. It's more effort for them to walk slower. Now if you have a tiny dog or short-legged dog, or a dog where they don't breathe very well, that's going to be different than what we're saying right now. In general this sort of fast trot, punctuated, again like a toddler with lots of stopping and smelling, sideways motion, going backwards, following something, and then getting back on to that long trot - that would be much more their natural over ground forward motion. Or what we would think of as going for a walk that would best fit a dog.
JEANNETTE: Certainly my dog, when she's off lead, rarely walks. How she keeps pace with me is she stops, she runs off, she comes back - almost her walk looks like she's not quite comfortable. And as soon as that trot starts, she looks more at ease. It's interesting.
KATY: I think it's awkward. It's an awkward pace for them to especially sustain for so long.
JEANNETTE: And I see people running with their dogs. And I also think that that is potentially too fast for them over long distances.
KATY: That's right.
JEANNETTE: Because they are not so good, particularly in hotter climates, at thermoregulation. So you wouldn't find a dog choosing to go at your jogging or running pace. They would always have ... they would conversely take breaks. They would trot. So that I also think is not natural. I know you get these sled dogs that have been selected for this. Running at a certain pace. But also that's done in typically a much colder climate where it's much easier for them to thermoregulate. So we're always sort of slightly altering our dog's favorite place. Unless you're lucky enough, like I am, that I have a safe place that I can let my dog be off leash.
KATY: That's right.
JEANNETTE: Because lots of us can't - through safety issues, both for the dog and for other people or whatever. So it's quite tough to move naturally as a dog in the western world.
KATY: It is. And I'm not sure that many people who get dogs know that there are breeds that might suit their lifestyle...
JEANNETTE: Better.
KATY: ... better. They might like the look of a dog but might not realize that this dog has a particular movement diet need. Because dogs do have ... A high energy dog, like the type that I have, would not work well, and is interpreted as sort of a behavioral tricky dog. But it's because the environment is not a good match for their genetics in this way.
JEANNETTE: Yes.
KATY: And then also, so we've got walking, or whatever we want to call it - locomotion. We've got this idea of locomotion. And I think there's ways that you can still get ... dog parks are really nice.
JEANNETTE: Yes.
KATY: But I think when people go to dog parks they're often like, "Ok go play with the other dogs." Sort of like a parent going to a playground. You know as a chance to take the dog somewhere where they can get social time. And I think that that's valid. You're going to be able to get those things. But it's also a good space to maybe get those other movements developed as well that you might have to facilitate.
JEANNETTE: With one of my dogs was very high-energy. He was a hunt, point, retrieve breed. And when he was young he loved to play. And that's where he did all those - you're talking about those fast jinky movements. You know we just go to a park and he would spend six hours playing. Not so much as he got older, but I think, like you said, those fast-paced sprints and then breaks. And play. Play is so important for a dog's movement. And their social skills.
KATY: Right. I was thinking about how to categorize so many dog movements. But I think play. For this psychology that is my next upcoming book, I was doing some research on dog movement and play is really important to dogs. Just like now all the research is saying "play for everybody. Play for humans. Play for dogs." But that play is a particularly - it's command free movement. And I thought that that was really interesting.
JEANNETTE: You mean command as in free from the owners' commanding?
KATY: Yes. That within a bout of play there's not a stop. That normal structure of behavioral rules is removed from it. And also do you know the play bow? They call it the play bow in dogs. It's the shape that a dog makes. When they go low on their fronts.
JEANNETTE: Like a downward dog.
KATY: Yes, it's like a downward dog but it's usually with a little pounce or a pass. It's different than the get up stretch that they do. And that signal is actually a signal that we are playing now. So even though a lot of our behaviors look like wrestling or fighting, you know, jumping and pouncing on each other, that this is a play period of time. And I thought that that was really interesting, knowing that dogs use their whole bodies to communicate and to set boundaries around what's about to happen. So play is good. And I think owners can easily play with their dog and create. For me, like I said, it's the cutting motion. It's that agility. Catching. Catching is so - they don't throw in that way.
JEANNETTE: All my dogs have loved tug of war. And there used to be this thing, I remember back in the day, it was "don't let your dog win because it's a sign that the dog..."
KATY: They'll kill you in your sleep.
JEANNETTE: I think that kind of dominance angle is kind of going out of vogue now. But my dogs love it. And for their necks, because dogs would have done a lot more bone chewing and work with their neck, I think that's a really important movement especially when they're young. That tug. And they do it with each other. If you've got a couple of dogs they'll often just be there for hours, one end of one toy and the other end the other dog.
KATY: That's funny that you say that because you asked me about my dog's favorite movement and one of her favorite ways of playing is hauling large, heavy sticks out of water. So she wants you to throw in a log and she wants to go in. And it's the drag. Little sticks, fine. It's this big awkward one. She uses her full body pushing down into the ground, bracing with strong shoulders and then pulling out. And having a dog, I would say that, when you have a dog that does a lot of cutting - sudden right to left motion - and a lot of climbing - going up hills - she has massive shoulders. She has massive glutes. They really pop out of her body when she's doing a lot of training. And when she doesn't have that muscle mass and goes to cut, she'll often hurt her shoulder or her elbow. So I couldn't, if she had been, let's say we had gone away and she'd been staying with a friend who was diligent about taking her on walks but maybe not a lot of other movements, and I go home and she comes home and I throw a frisbee and she does a big sprint and a jump and a land, she does not have the muscle mass to stabilize those joints like she does when she's doing a more well rounded movement diet. And so she had a little elbow injury when she was very young. And by keeping up her muscle mass, that's what really keeps up the stability of the joint. And when she's not doing that it'll twinge her a lot more often. So I've just noticed, "oh she's been low on this type of movement" and so instead of picking this place to walk which is maybe a lot of flat, overground stuff, I will take her to a place where I know she can be leaping and hopping and she can take something she's limping on and through doing some hopping motion totally get rid of the catch that that joint has.
JEANNETTE: That's interesting. My little girl has a slight abnormality in her elbow - one of her elbows. Which I think has caused some kind of elbow dysplasia. But I think it was caused by a grown deformity where one bone grew at different rates relative to the other. So it's kind of a little bit bowed. And it gave her some symptoms when she was young. And the vet said, "she might not be a dog you can go huge long walks with." But we've just been very diligent. But I hadn't really thought about the types of movements that would help support her elbow. I'm pleased you brought that up because I'm now going to watch. Because most of the time she's fine, but she'd definitely - it can occasionally flare up. But the problem with that is you often get, "Oh you need to ease off the exercise." And this will be the thing. Your dog has been diagnosed with something and you think well I have to ease off rather than what do I need to add in to support that joint.
KATY: Or a little bit of both. The idea of its repetitive use. But does repetitive use mean too much movement or does it mean too much of one type of movement? Or does it mean too much of one type of movement in the absence of any other movement? Again with those vitamins, the way that they behave with each other, or the way that macronutrients in diet work, you get different outcomes depending on the ratio of everything else. So I am definitely wired to try fiddling with types of movement versus playing around with no movement at all. Because I know for animals that's rarely often the situation that they would find themselves in. The ability to be still for so long. So I tend to look for solutions where movement is still happening but maybe in a way that allows a certain area to heal. Or just goes in and adds a structure that supports an area so that it functions a little bit differently. So we're starting to take a listener questions. It's not going to be related to dogs. Do you think this is a good time to do it?
KATY: Ok, so the question today is brought to you by Correct Toes. Correct Toes create foot rehabilitation tools including their amazing anatomic silicone toe spacers which can be worn barefoot and in shoes. I've worn them. They're great. Correct Toes are offering Move Your DNA listeners a $5 discount with any purchase during the next 6 months using code: MYD-toes5. And you can find them online at CorrectToes.com. Ok. Question.
JEANNETTE: So the question is: Just wondering if you've ever spoken about Morton's foot and how that all works with barefoot shoes/walking. I was at a barefoot shoe store that also sold insoles that was just a thin pad under the first metatarsal to prevent the foot from pronating excessively when pushing off. Is this structural variation actually something in need of an insole or do you have a different opinion on this.
KATY: Well, I'm full of different opinions. That's my middle name.
JEANNETTE: So first I think we need explain what a Morton's Foot is for listeners. So Morton's Foot is one where the second toe is longer than the first. And I believe that can also encourage more pronation sometime than is ideal.
KATY: And I think with Morton's toe... so Morton's foot, I always like my little bit of trivia that the Statue of Liberty here in America has a Morton's toe. It's the biggest Morton's toe in the world.
JEANNETTE: I did not know that. That's amazing! Was it modeled off a real person?
KATY: It must have been. I think it must have been. I don't know if the whole person was, but certainly the feet were. I have artistic kids and they're always like, "let me see your foot, let me see your hand" when they want to draw something. So obviously something real was used. And what tends to happen, because you have that longer segment is, there's a tendency towards hypermobility in the second metatarsal.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: And so you get a lot of pressure. If you look down at your foot, for everyone listening, you look down at your foot. You look at where your second toe connects to your foot. That spot right there, because there's a longer lever, when there's a lack of strength or stability in all of your parts, this extra long lever gets to move a little bit extra. And then it creates a lot of downward pressure and it ends up pushing on a nerve. It creates a focal point in your foot. So every time you go to step on that foot you're really pressing down in that particular area, again and again and again. Speaking of repetitive use. So my answer here is really not that different than what I was saying about the dog - the dog's elbow earlier. I think that, I wouldn't assume that the structure of your foot is the problem - like some unsolvable problem. That the way you move your whole body, including the way that you move your foot, is part of what, over time, you know over decades, is part of what has created this focal point of pressure. And so one way to solve this focal point of pressure is to add padding underneath it. Because you can decrease pressure - the softer or squishier something is. Also still shoes. Right? So stiff shoes decreases the amount that you would be articulating at your toes. So that holds - a stiff shoe can hold that toe more firmly in place. Padding underneath it can decrease the pressure sensation that you have. And I think that you can go a certain distance with those tools. But I do think that eventually you always have to have those tools in order to be able to move without pain. And I think even the pain can tend to persist anyway.
JEANNETTE: Okay.
KATY: Over time. And so I think that people, when they have a foot pain journey, they start making accommodations. "I can only wear this type of shoe. I can only walk this far." And so it's very similar, like when you were talking about domestication, the dependency on something outside of yourself. And so our ability to move broadly gets smaller and smaller and smaller until, in order for your foot to not be a problem, you have to spend most of your time sitting. When you are up and walking it's got to be in this type of shoe. And I think many of us are in this situation. For whatever our ailment is. So what I would work on is - add the padding. Get the footwear that allows you to be as comfortable as possible. And also work on the actual foot itself. The actual leg itself. Learning how to carry your weight in a way that does not necessarily put pressure on that one particular space. Strengthening all the tissues in your feet so that you can maybe realign which will also change where the pressure points are in your feet. Strengthen muscles to carry yourself better so you're not passively just banging that spot into the ground again and again.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: So you can check out - I have a virtual studio which is at NutritiousMovement.com. And that's almost 200 classes. And you can find classes just on the feet and on just realigning the legs and on gait. And that would be my recommendation. But it's not to throw those other things out the window but it's to do them together so that you are not moving towards less movement. You want to be growing towards more movement. Final answer.
JEANNETTE: Brilliant. That's fantastic. It was a good question too. So back to dogs.
JEANNETTE: Dog's feet are amazing, by the way.
KATY: Tell me about that.
JEANNETTE: Amazing.
KATY: Like their nose? Can they smell with their feet?
JEANNETTE: No.
KATY: Can they smell with their feet?
JEANNETTE: No, they can't smell with their feet, but they can lose a bit of heat through their feet. One of the few spots in their body where they can lose some heat. They have these wonderful, I'm sure when you had those puppies you squigged their lovely pads on their feet.
KATY: Oh... soft.
JEANNETTE: They have very squishy - they have very fatty tissue so they're quite cushioned which is why our dogs don't seem to need any protective covering on their feet. And they're also quite, even dogs that run through snow, they're quite resistant to the temperature. Although interestingly, this is an interesting movement development story for you. So I used to go to a park with one of my dogs and we regularly met this lovely little dog who was a rescue dog and when they got her she could not tolerate walking outside because she'd been kept in a crate unmoved. They said her pads were as thin as our skin and just pink. And they had to really slowly build up her movement plan. So dogs' feet need lots of robust development too.
KATY: And calluses too.
JEANNETTE: Calluses yes.
KATY: When we were in Central America we had our dog with us there too because we were there for such a long time. And I could see the quality, just with the heat and the sand and the dryness despite the moist climate. So I gave her a lot of cream and lotion on the soles of her feet to keep them from getting cracked and dried out. But yeah, although I see dog shoes?
JEANNETTE: Yeah.
KATY: For extreme environments. It's the same thing with human shoes, right? I think if you lived in let's say you're in Phoenix in the summertime. Arizona, which not everyone knows all the states here, but, quite hot. Over 100. Day after day. Mostly cement. A lot of asphalt. I could see that not being the best environment.
JEANNETTE: No it would definitely be damaging to dogs' paws to be on that. And presumably very cold for some in the northern reaches of Canada. If you've not got a husky or something that's not got very robust protection.
KATY: It's not been adapted for cold.
JEANNETTE: And also for injury. Like if you've got a foot injury - boots. I think some boots are for house cleanliness which would...
KATY: Dog house slippers.
JEANNETTE: No. I think people who are very very house proud will put … I don't see it around here, but I've heard of it being a thing. That put the boots on the dog so they can take them off when they go inside. Which I would encourage you to let your dogs go barefoot.
KATY: I see what you're saying. I thought it was the other way around. "You can be inside but when you come back in you need to wear socks."
JEANNETTE: Oh well maybe that's a thing too.
KATY: That's what my mom does for my childrens' feet. When they were really young - because normally you would have people take their shoes off to bring clean feet in. That didn't work with us unshod family. So she bought everyone a pair of slippers. And I thought this is amazing. She had found a way to support our barefootedness in her home. And they love it.
JEANNETTE: I cannot tell you how much I love that. I'm going to protect my house from your feet.
KATY: Exactly. I don't know. A parenting win? A parenting fail? I don't know. Either way.
JEANNETTE: I call it a win. I think that's brilliant.
KATY: I think it's great and I thought it was really great for my mom to have that boundary.
KATY: So dogs. What about swimming? I would put swimming as ... I had a friend who said a long time ago, "There's too much water on the planet to not have a boat." And I said, "Well, I think there's too much water on the planet to not know how to swim."
JEANNETTE: Yeah.
KATY: And I feel that same way for my dogs. Now we live in a lake, river area. Very water rich area. And I wanted to make sure that my dog and my children could swim in wild water and knew how to deal with rapids, and crossing rivers, and just understand, when you get in, how to think about a river, how to get out. So we river-trained our dog too as part of what I would say is a movement diet for her for safety reasons. I don't know if swimming is a movement that a dog would need the same way as other movements.
JEANNETTE: I think we've touched on dogs swimming in our swimming episode. Dogs don't necessarily need to be taught to swim. Their terrestrial motion translates well into swimming. Whereas people are different. Our terrestrial movement plans don't translate. So we have to learn to swim. Whereas dogs typically all can swim in some way.
KATY: Like I said in that episode, I had a puppy just leap off a deck and came right up and paddled right to shore. Although in that episode I want to say too, for those who are just listening, not all dog breeds can swim. There are a couple of them due to their lengths...
JEANNETTE: Muscle density? Or lengths?
KATY: I think it's their length. But just check before you're like, "I heard on this podcast that I should just throw my dog in the water."
JEANNETTE: Yeah. Don't do that.
KATY: Go check with someone first.
JEANNETTE: I have a funny story. I look after quite a few dogs. And I was looking after - I have this motley crew of a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, a German Shepherd Staffordshire Bull Terrier cross, and a Pomeranian. And I was down by a lake and I didn't know. And I was so concerned about the Pomeranian but I didn't think the Staffordshire Bull Terrier who is ginormous, quite chunky, would swim. And then the next thing, Staffordshire Bull Terrier is in and I'm thinking, "I'm going to have to rescue this thing." And she's giant. But she was absolutely fine. But there was a moment when I was thinking this density of this dog is so high that she's just going to sink. But they were all fine. But they are all, I think, used to water. And I think that's where you're right. Although technically most dogs can swim, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're actually going to use ... they'll be ok in wild water if they've not been exposed to it when young and practiced in safe environments.
KATY: Yeah.
JEANNETTE: And actually I had a rescue lab, which was fascinating to me. Because most labs you think of being swimming dogs. They're bred for retrieving from the water. And he clearly had never been walked let alone been swimming. And we all went swimming and he kind of tried to swim upright. So he was trying to kind of climb out of the water. And so we had to get in with him and kind of show him how to go on his belly. And I think he had missed - he was about nine months when we rescued him - and I think he had missed that learning phase where they would have tried it as puppies or with their parents. And he just didn't quite know how to hold himself in the water. I think you're right. A little bit of practice from the human parents is definitely advisable.
KATY: Well, I think it's tricky when we talk about animals. I've seen horses that have spent their entire time in a corral who have never gone up a step. I have a video of a horse learning how to go up a step and watching this horse come up to this step and reach and touch it with its foot and then step back. It had no idea how to transfer it's weight.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: So we're all natural beings, and that we're born to move. Which I believe we are as a species. I don't think we can underestimate the impact of mentorship, modeling, demonstration. That these are equally biological as the innateness is to move. We need to be taught. We've got flocks of geese that can't migrate. They've got all their flying anatomy, but they have not been shown how to do it. And so, therefore, they can fly but those migration patterns still need to be triggered in some way. And so I think the catalyst is exposure.
JEANNETTE: And at certain ages, too, I think.
KATY: I do think so, yes.
JEANNETTE: In humans, too, there's this phase where we're not, what do they call it? Is it neophilia, where you respond really well to new things? You don't have the same fear. Teenage humans are particularly in that category.
KATY: They're great at it.
JEANNETTE: But then you lose those windows. And then a new experience, like the horse, this new thing is something to be fearful of.
KATY: Yeah.
KATY: Yeah. So I'm a big fan of exposing your ... I feel like we're talking about dogs or kids, it's all sort of the same thing. Logs and balance and we go on hikes that have sometimes bridges with gaps. And I can see my dog try to figure it out and walk over something. She bends, she'll lower her center of mass if she has to cross a wobbly bridge or something that has ... we have a lot of docks here. And docks will have surfaces that have gaps. Yes, to let water drain. And she just needs a moment to go back and forth and learn what it is. So you're not rushing her but you're exposing and it just makes the dog comfortable in a lot more spaces. And I just want to talk about two more movements before we go. One is I was reading, it wasn't a research paper. I think it was maybe a veterinarian blog about how dogs need to break things down when we talk about movement. You talked about jaw movement and neck. But using your hands and your mouth to basically break down an animal, that ripping and separation. So a lot of dogs will get that by chewing things up. But they really do like to take something big and break it down into smaller pieces. That's jaw movement, hand movement. And I think it also, we are talking about movements. We're not really talking about the payoff in the mind of those experiences - of satisfying experiences. It's like, "My dog needs a walk." That's like looking at a dog as just a set of muscles and bones. We need to have interesting lives. And part of a walk is reading all of the text messages from all the other dogs that are around.
JEANNETTE: Right, yes.
KATY: And then also going to a new place. Seeing a new bird. Seeing something new. Being excited by life. And just to keep in mind that a lot of the things that dogs are doing for play are part of what's in their genetics to be able to be satisfied by catching something. By playing with a group of people. That it's mentally pleasing.
JEANNETTE: Fulfilling to them.
KATY: Yeah. It's meaningful. That's a big part of our perfect movement plans is that our movement is meaningful. And so the idea that a dog just needs exercise to be ok rather than puzzles to solve and things to master, I think, is underselling an animal.
JEANNETTE: Yeah, absolutely. There's a wonderful book I read a few years ago and I think it was by someone Horowitz called Inside of a Dog. It's a beautiful book. In it she talks about taking dogs for a smell walk. Because even if, I think, there might be people listening that actually they can't take their dog off leash...
KATY: Right.
JEANNETTE: ...due to safety considerations. And that's the reality. But a dog can be very fulfilled if you allow them to sniff. Because we're visual. They are most definitely smell. And she says in this book she describes how she feels very sad when she sees a dog just sort of dragged from one place and they want to stop and sniff. So she said she always makes sure she takes all her dogs on what she calls a sniff walk.
KATY: So if you're using your dog walk as your fitness, you might think about smaller walks also just for the dog.
JEANNETTE: Yes.
KATY: And the same thing goes for kids. When people are saying "Oh my toddler is going so slow or they don't want to go as far." Have some toddler-led walks where you just say, "Where would you like to go?" And don't make that your fitness walk which is bound to make you frustrated about you getting what you need. Just instead of it just being one shot, maybe you can do something in the morning. Maybe you can have these shorter 15 or 20 minutes. They don't have to go anywhere. Maybe you're dog is still on a leash but they can go where they want. Dogs are often asking.
JEANNETTE: Oh for sure.
KATY: They communicate through their body language and to learn how to speak dog is so helpful if you want to deepen this relationship.
JEANNETTE: My husband always says that Nellie walks me. Which is true. He says, "Do you just go the way she wants to go?" And I say, "Yeah." She looks at me, she points and I'm like "Sure."
KATY: We get that a lot. Just "I need to go down here to the river." And then also when it doesn't work out, "I'm sorry we don't have time." But I acknowledge that there was a question. You know. Rather than just being completely oblivious to what's going on. All right. So next episode is cats?
JEANNETTE: Well, I have one funny story to share about my dog which involves a cat.
KATY: OK perfect.
JEANNETTE: So this is your one bit of cat. So when my dog was a puppy we had a cat. And Nellie really wanted to make friends with this cat who was really having none of it. But she would follow her. She was an amazing cat. She would come for walks with us, which were the slowest walks ever. I had small kids. I had a cat who spent her entire time hiding from dogs and whatever. And so the puppy would come on the walks too. And now my dog climbs trees because she followed the cat. And I've been walking with people and suddenly she's on this log that's 12 feet high. And people will say to me, "Well I've had dogs for 35 years and I have never seen that." Well no one told her she couldn't climb it.
KATY: She thinks she's a cat.
JEANNETTE: She thinks she's part cat. And that's one of her favorite things is she scurries up any - not obviously a vertical trunk - but any kind of fallen down tree that she can charge up to chase the squirrels, she does it. So dogs can be very adaptable in their movements given an opportunity.
KATY: And the modeling. It's the modeling. Definitely our dog still has her dew claws because they're so essential for climbing. They're essential for her ability to haul herself out of water and to go up and down steep hills. And so she needs that bit - that's part of her anatomy for movement.
JEANNETTE: Do lots of people remove them in the states.
KATY: They do.
JEANNETTE: Interesting. That's not a thing here.
KATY: Yeah. They do. But it's not a vestigial organ. It's a part of their movement apparati. And another fun movement that we have is, our dog likes to be carried.
JEANNETTE: Oh!
KATY: We lived in a tiny house for a while that had a set of steps or ladder that we could climb up but she couldn't, and so she learned how to be handed down.
JEANNETTE: Right. Yeah.
KATY: Up and down. And that has come in really handy for hiking. It's also handy for emergencies that she is comfortable being carried. She holds on. She doesn't even really need arms around her. She knows how to hold on. And I just really go oh there's so much to a dog's movement diet that I think that we've barely considered. So hopefully this is a little bit of practical information for those who love dogs, or work with dogs, just to think about what's a movement diet of my dog? How can I expand it in a practical way? And also how can I leverage it to get more of the movement that you need yourself?
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: Those playful movements that we want to talk about are more challenging than walking.
JEANNETTE: Oh yeah.
KATY: So let's say that you want to go out to a yard. You don't even have to be on off-leash space, although if you can find off-leash spaces, if you can identify one place for a walk. And if you also feel like you couldn't manage your dog. I think sometimes it's not the off-leash space. It's having the skill and the relationship with your dog. Where your dog has enough experience to know how to be off-leash. Think about a training course - an agility training course or something like that where it's supervised and you get that instruction. It's fun.
JEANNETTE: Yeah.
KATY: It's enjoyable to speak another language like dog.
JEANNETTE: Absolutely.
KATY: All right well thanks to everyone for having a listen to the Move Your DNA podcast, which, again, has been brought to you by our Dynamic Collective of Movemate, Wildling, Correct Toes, Smart Playrooms, Venn Design, and Peluva. Don't forget to like or subscribe to this podcast, please. That would be wonderful to support. And if you have a question that you would like to be considered for our listener questions, please send it to podcast@nutritiousmovement.com. Thanks everyone! Ruff.
JEANNETTE: Bye!
KATY: I feel like we need...
JEANNETTE: Dog sounds.
KATY: Meow. Yeah. Exactly. All right. Cheers everyone.
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Hi my name is Alexis from Yucca Valley, California. This has been Move Your DNA with Katy Boman, a podcast about movement. We hope you find the general information in this podcast informative and helpful but it it not intended to replace medical advice and should not be used as such. Our theme music was performed by Dan MacCormack. This podcast is produced by Brock Armstrong and is transcribed by Annette Yen. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to audio. And find out more about Katy, her books, and her movement programs at Nutritiousmovement.com.
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