Click on NOTE CATEGORIES to browse by topic, read through the entire archives, or type a topic in the search box.Following on from our Hiking Poles episode, biomechanist Katy Bowman and biologist Jeannette Loram answer all your other questions about hiking.
Katy and Jeannette discuss how to prepare for hiking, walking with a backpack, hiking gear, and clothing, and how to manage fatigue or pain. They flesh out the functional movements involved in hiking, why downhill can be so hard on the knees and calves, and how a backpack changes the loads to your body. Katy also provides a weekly plan of exercises to support hiking and explains how swimming and walking are the perfect movement pair.
OVERVIEW
(time codes are approximate)
00:02:15 - On the Hiking/Swimming duo (Jump to section)
00:04:25 - How to Hike Uphill and Downhill question (Jump to section)
00:07:25 - Loose Rocks/Terrain and Fear in Hiking (Jump to section)
00:16:25 - Prepping for Hills When You Live in Flat Land (Jump to section)
00:21:00 - Soleus Deep Dive (Jump to section)
00:25:00 - Calves, Soleus, and Horse Butt (Jump to section)
00:34:45 - Continuing with an Injury (Jump to section)
00:38:55 - Combatting Fatigue (Jump to section)
00:42:35 - Backpacking Deep Dive (Jump to section)
00:52:15 - Prepare Yourself to Hike - Suggested Stretches (Jump to section)
LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW
Downhill Knees Article (now in ReThink Your Position)
Advanced Calf, Soleus, and Pelvic List
Katy’s discussion about hiking on slate
Episode #159 - To Hiking Pole or Not To Hiking Pole
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
(Theme Music)
This is the Move Your DNA podcast, a show where movement science meets your everyday life. I'm Katy Bowman, biomechanist, author, and avid hiker. And I'm Jeannette Loram, biologist, movement teacher, and another avid hiker. Every body is welcome here. Let's get started.
(Music fade)
Hey friends! What's up? Last podcast episode was all about hiking poles. And we were poking around in our Mailbag and we found that there were many more questions about hiking so we thought we would do a Mailbag episode. If you have questions about hiking poles, please note that they're going to be in the previous episode where we put all of our thoughts about hiking poles.
KATY: Would you say?
JEANNETTE: All of it! Yes.
KATY: All stones turned. All stones were turned. So in this episode we're going to be talking a lot about just the hiking mechanics, gait, body pain, how to get started. I think there was a question about how to get started in there.
JEANNETTE: Yeah. How to prepare. There were quite a few.
KATY: And I'm not sure if many of you listening to this know but I have a virtual studio. This is a place where you can find me teaching exercise classes. There's a library of over 200 classes. And a lot of the classes are based on gait, and hiking, and everything you can do with your body. You can work on just those things. But why I'm bringing this up is I actually do a live monthly q&a session with studio members for an hour that you can join in live. So, I don't know, Mailbag episodes are few and far between for a year. But we're going to try to bring back some more of them more regularly I would say. But we get a lot of questions and then we're picking the ones. And if you're in VSM - a member of the virtual studio - then the chances of you getting your question answered is a lot higher because, again, I do monthly. So something to keep in mind. Before we get started ... Jeannette, you have a hike that you are looking forward to doing this summer.
KATY: I like that combination. And in fact, that's an important combination to me - the hike/swim combo which we'll talk about a little later in the show. I'm glad you brought that up. That's also one of my favorite things to do.
JEANNETTE: See! This is why we're friends.
KATY: That's right. There are so few - there are plenty of people who are listening going, "Yes! I love that." But it can be a challenge. The water is often cold. What's the water temperature there for you?
JEANNETTE: Very cold. I would love it to be a little bit warmer. But again, as you heard in the last episode, I'm a minimalist hiker so I'm not packing a wet suit.
KATY: No. Do you bring a towel or a shammy?
JEANNETTE: Yes. A towel or a shammy for sure. And definitely a costume so that I can get dry and warm. And yeah, it's cold so it's quick. But I would say even summer, even height of summer, you're not talking much higher than 15 degrees.
KATY: And that's about - that's in the high 50s in Fahrenheit.
JEANNETTE: Mm-hmm. Is that similar to ...
KATY: We're a bit colder here so...
JEANNETTE: Oh ok.
KATY: ...so my big hike this year as far as the big backpacking trip will take me up into the Olympic Mountains. And so we're swimming in melted ice pools essentially. So it's a bit colder. I would say it's in the 30's. They're definitely polar bear dips. But, ok, so let's jump into the Mailbag so we can get as many of these ...
KATY: Five minutes? So I would say the how to that I'm going to give you - I'm gonna assume that this person is saying "How would I even get started?" In which case, I would suggest taking all the flights of stairs you can. Ok? So just taking all the flights of stairs. There is a tremendous difference in uphill from down downhill. So with uphill hiking in general what you're having to - the wall that you're going to hit with uphill is how much movement your heart and lungs are used to getting. Physically you are taking your body weight and you are lifting it up. Just imagine pushing something up overhead with your shoulders. Your body is having to lift something up. So the limitations for that is how in shape your cardiovascular system is. And so you would want to prioritize cardiovascular training of any type. Anything that gets your heart and lungs moving more will help. So that means, you know, dance parties in the kitchen where you're trying to find those minutes. It could be, again, taking all the stairs that you can. Eschewing escalators and elevators. But if you don't have a lot of those in your regular life, that's not going to help you. Because volume is the key. So you need … your heart and lungs, all you're doing it's just like taking your joints through their ranges of motion. The heart and lungs need to be taken through their ranges of motion and it takes you either adding load: you carrying more. You're already walking flat. You're doing that fine. And yet you already have the space for that in your life and you don't feel like you want to play around with that. You can add a backpack. You could add weight to your frame, or you could swap out some of your flat walking patterns for something with incline. The barrier to hiking going downhill is going to be the joints - the state of your joints. You know, your ankles, knees, and hips are the easiest way to think about it. So your ankles need to be fairly strong. You calves - the deeper calf. And later in the show there will be questions that will break this down.
JEANNETTE: Yeah. Yes.
KATY: So all that to say, keep listening.
JEANNETTE: Yeah, there's lots of downhill questions. So we can park that maybe.
KATY: Yes. So you can listen to this and just start taking the stairs. And that's going to be working on the uphill part. And then you can work on the downhill part. And then dealing with the quadriceps and the mobility of the hips. So there's stretching in your future. Some subtle strengthening exercises. And then just get out and try. And start small. Start short. So a little bit of time. A very small hike. Easier terrain - meaning not something that's extremely steep going up or down. And that's how you get started.
KATY: Yes. Why do you love this question?
JEANNETTE: I love this question because I see myself in it now - as I get older. There's a very very steep, it's quite quick, probably about a 3 hour walk up and down unless you have a whining 10 year old.
KATY: And then it's all day.
JEANNETTE: Then it's all day. But very very steep at the start in the front and the end. It's an up and back route. And as we were coming back my kids just decided to slide down. It's really muddy. It's really wet. And they just start diving down. And running and they make it look so fluid. And I kept thinking, "Oh my goodness. That looks so painful but I wish I could do it." So I see that anticipation or that fear coming in that I have to continue to work against now. Whereas they don't have that.
KATY: No.
JEANNETTE: They're loosey goosey and just go for it. I think fear is often a thing that stops us doing those things. That's why I love this question.
KATY: Yeah. Especially in the backcountry. I mean, I would definitely recommend keeping up the ability to slide down something on your butt. So this brings in clothing. I do think that what kids don't have, usually, is a fear of ruining their clothing. Or a fear of getting dirty.
JEANNETTE: Or having to wash it.
KATY: Exactly or buy new ones. They're let off the hook from all the consequences of that. So I had found too, earlier on, I mean this is not even just to your comment. We're not even to the question yet. But I think this is part of it. When you have a bigger bag of getting down the hill, that can reduce fear. If you're whole bag of tricks includes I'm gonna have to stand up and slowly shuffle down, it's like, just put your butt on the ground and slide down. It'll be more comfortable. It'll be faster. But, you have to be ok with what that does to your clothing. So I definitely have clothing that is full of holes and full of rips and that's what I'm going to choose to wear. I'm not going to look like the slickest person on the trail. Because sometimes I want to bushwack a particular way. So my going up and coming down might be more playful. I might want to follow my kids. So I would practice easing yourself down, even with a backpack. Not a full backpacking backpack, but you know ... I feel like I'm also carrying a lot more than my kids.
JEANNETTE: Right. Yeah.
KATY: I've got items and they're so light and fancy free because they're literally not carrying all the things they're going to need.
JEANNETTE: They are.
KATY: So, that's on me to distribute the load better. But yeah, getting down and practicing crab walking down or butt shuffling down. That will help reduce fear, I think, overall. Because you're already going "I have a few choices here". You don't feel like ...
JEANNETTE: ... I have to brace and stay upright.
KATY: Yes. I think part of that is really feeling limited in your mind. Your flexibility or psychological flexibility around what it's going to take to get down this hill only includes one thing. And so if something hurts, your knee hurts, you're afraid of slipping, there's nothing to do but brace. Now you're probably not going to go down three miles on your butt, but you could if you had to. And you're like, "Oh my shoulder couldn't take that," then that's part of your movement plan. I'm referring to the new book that's probably out now, My Perfect Movement Plan, but that would be a whole... if backpacking or being outside and hiking is really important to you and in the section of what are the functional movements that hiking depends on, make sure you don't only have upright gait in there. You know? Make sure that you have the ability to carry a load and squat down and sort of scramble need be. Because that is part of a robust tool set for moving outside. It's using these other shapes. Not everything is an easy path. And you just want to be prepared for having to duck and bend and carry your pack on your backpack as you go underneath a log.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: And yes you can take it off as you need to but then you have to be able to drag your pack. So making sure that you consider all of those movements as part of hiking or backpacking movement.
JEANNETTE: Mm-hmm.
KATY: Ok, so now to the question about how....
JEANNETTE: How best to brace your body during these downhills.
KATY: Yeah. So brace is a tricky word. I would be as relaxed as possible. And then I always watch my foot placement. I play around with foot turn out a little bit to see where I feel stable given the substrate that I'm walking on. Hiking poles, we talked about this in the last episode, you know, if you're finding this is a really big issue, this is why many people will use hiking poles because it gives them four limbs on the ground as they negotiate things that are slippery. I have long wanted substrate information on hiking in Scotland. Do you have these websites that sort of really break down trails? We've lived in New Zealand and they ... a lot of places that are more wild where people tend to not have these big websites.
JEANNETTE: Yeah. No we don't, actually. And I think it's a big reason that I don't see many people out.
KATY: Right.
JEANNETTE: Because the substrate is difficult where we live.
KATY: Yes.
JEANNETTE: You know, it's either rocky and squee or wet. And it can induce fear.
KATY: Yeah.
JEANNETTE: Because of that.
KATY: Well, and that's why I train people with floating stairs. That's why a big part of thorough gait training includes instability. That you are the stable thing in the environment when the rest of the environment is not.
JEANNETTE: Is not. Yeah.
KATY: Instead of taking something unstable and putting it in an unstable environment. Of course you're going to feel you're feeling exactly as you should. Right? Which is "I don't have the practice in this situation."
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: So one, I guess, to the person who is asking the question is: start practicing for instability. Because then you will have many more muscles that come online when your foot slides right, left, front, to back. Right? You want to have that ability to know what to do. And so that will reduce your fear, I think, because your body will physically know what to do in this upright walking. You could add hiking poles. You could go down on your butt. And then you could just try to relax as much as possible. But I do think relaxing comes through either more repeated exposure; you're doing it more regularly and seeing that, "Ok I've done this trail multiple times. I know what it takes of me." So the novelty could be a big part of the apprehension.
JEANNETTE: I certainly, in some of the terrain I walk in, I might not feel like I want to go straight down. But I could turn to the side.
KATY: Side step is a big one. That's that foot position. Right? You're gonna play with...
JEANNETTE: And you feel much more in control. Yeah so just getting used to when you can use those strategies.
KATY: Well, exactly. And so what you were saying is, it's like if people are skiers. You've got this big hill in front of you. Do you point your skis straight down? No. Not usually. So you angle. Or you could walk a slalom.
JEANNETTE: That's right.
KATY: Or you could side step. That's turning your skis at an angle and sort of walking down one after the other. Or you could walk down. You can create your own slalom on a trail so that your feet and your body are never really lined up directly down towards the bottom of the hill. And that helps cut you into the hill a little bit so that you're not going to - you could always slide sideways, but in that case you just gotta go down on one hip. Which is also why you want to practice falling or some of these other stretches. That's part of the reason you don't want to take a super stiff body back there because if you did slip and your legs did go into more of a split or you've got one leg that stretches out and it really pulls on your inner thigh that you're not back there and something tore.
JEANNETTE: Torn apart.
JEANNETTE: It can feel like that, can't it? Great, ok so we have another good one. Because this is all about prep. So this person is hoping to do an 8 mile hike up in Mount Townsend which I believe is near you.
KATY: That's by me.
JEANNETTE: The issue will be the incline/decline which I have never done 4 miles of especially at some elevation. And, living in Texas, it is super flat. So I am only able to do a smaller amount on hills and I am going to have to do some treadmill incline. I don't know how to do enough decline. And I need to watch my knee health and my non-op hip soreness.
KATY: Looks like for the non-operative hip. They had a hip replacement.
JEANNETTE: So particularly the decline where she doesn't have local terrain to practice on.
KATY: That's right. So, and I love that you've got the incline on the treadmill. So for decline there's three things you could do. And I would probably do all of them - they're all different. But they just might fit differently into your day. So I have a Walking Well program. It's a video program that's a combination of gait exercises and also myofascial roll outs from Tune Up Fitness with Jill Miller. It's an amazing program. There's a step-down exercise. So you actually start up on something and you step down, keeping your back foot up on the thing that you were stepping. And what this does is it starts preparing your soleus - that's the lower deeper calf muscle - to be able to lengthen while holding you. So that's an eccentric contraction. To help you start priming your lower leg to hold you for a longer period of time as you go down so that your knees don't have to do all the work. That's essentially why you want that to happen. And also so you can - the tighter your soleus are, your solei, the shorter duration you can keep your back foot down on the ground as you step forward on the front foot. So for many people if you don't have that ankle mobility you have to sort of almost run down. You have to run down. And so that can cause an accelerated amount of speed going downhill. Or it means you have to peel the foot up so you don't have as big of a base of support going down the hill. So this is also for the person who is feeling nervous about going downhill. If your calves are really tight, especially the solei, this lower, deeper part of the calf, your stride gets really small going downhill. And so you have a smaller base of support. You're on one foot for more than you would need to be. You're not able to be on two feet for longer.
JEANNETTE: Which might be the bracing too because you're having to...
KATY: That's right because you have to use your quads more when these other parts aren't - the hips and the lower legs - aren't able to do their work. So if the bracing is really coming from the front of the thighs, then I would check into these other areas of the body. I'm going to refer to the other areas of the body a lot during this episode. So step downs from Walking Well. Stair training: So find your local staircase. It can be bleachers at a school. You could have a staircase in your own home, maybe where you work. And you want to give yourself 15 minutes on that staircase. And do it regularly. Just make that part of your exercise routine or your movement diet. So that you're going "I need some doses of staircases right now." Specifically for the downhill part.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: And then lunges. Lunges are my favorite hiking strength training exercise because they are ... lunges are gait hyperbole. It's taking a downhill step and then really calling it out and making it a big step. You're on the back toes. And that back heel is up. But the musculature that you're using is what you want to be able to use when you're hiking downhill. And uphill a little bit too. So the lunge is a really great exercise to put into your hiking training toolbox.
KATY: Yeah, so it's the same as the last person. I would definitely recommend the soleus exercise from Walking Well. It's a step down. And there are some classes in our virtual studio that have that too. So you're really able to get that movement. And then lunges but really specifically when you do lunges, here's the thing: When your solei are really tight, imagine getting yourself in a lunge position. I'm in a lunge position right now.
JEANNETTE: Yeah.
KATY: And then your back foot, when your soleus is really tight will tend to turn out just a little bit. You'll have this turn out in your foot. So you'll be like, "I'm doing lunges. I'm training my soleus here." But you're not really, because of this turn out. So you want to line up the back foot in the lunge so it's pointing straight forward. The forefoot is even across the front and then you'll see what the resistance is in your lower leg. So I'm giving you those two exercises as homework. But I also hear that you're saying that you're already stretching and doing strengthening exercises. So maybe adjust how you're doing them. Also, calf raises. But I would do elevated calf raises where - I would do calf raises on an incline so that your heels are lower than your toes and really coming down slowly without actually resting. So again, these are all to help eccentrically train the soleus there. Add a slight knee bend to get to your soleus even more. I would check in with the volume of your downhill when you're not hiking. Because what could be happening is even if you hike monthly, if you're not doing that much with your legs the rest of the time, every time you do a hike is like a big unique workout for them. It's really what we do daily that our bodies are well adapted to, not what we do less frequently than that. So it could just be that that's the only time that you have a pack on. Right? So it's not just the hike. Maybe you never carry anything on your frame the rest of the time so every time you do this hike it's like a big giant workout and you get this delayed muscle soreness that comes in. And so try to keep the work of that body up more regularly so it's not your achilles heal every time. Which is my attempt at a pun. Hopefully you got that.
JEANNETTE: Yeah. Because it could be, like you were saying, she's overloading every month. Yeah.
KATY: That's right. I mean, yeah, even if you hike every two weeks, the older you get the less your workouts stick with you.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: When you're young you're like, "Oh! I haven't hiked in six months and I'm gonna go do this hard thing." And it's like, whatever, because ...
JEANNETTE: Easy.
KATY: Yes. You just store it more easily. As you get older that is just less the case. So it could be that your soleus is like, "Wow. I've never done a hike before!" And you go away for 3 weeks and it's like, "Wow, I've never done a hike before." I don't want to call it muscle memory but it's just that you need to...
JEANNETTE: The adaptation.
KATY: The adaptation doesn't stick. Yeah. Doesn't stick. So yeah, maybe you want to start rucking. Maybe you want to start adding, if you're hiking and you carry 20 pounds, or even 10 or 15 pounds and the rest of the time you never have that even for walking, consider some of those things. Yeah.
JEANNETTE: And maybe so the calf raise - maybe progressing to a single leg too?
KATY: Yes. That is the other thing. So with calf raises we tend to do them both legs on the ground. But that's not what hiking is. Hiking is one leg at a time. So even if you don't have an incline to do it on, because I know a lot of folks wouldn't necessarily have a ramp or something. Although I just take a board, put a log in front of the board and I make myself a ramp. You can hold on to something but try your calf raise on a single leg and then you will actually be able to get closer to the load that the calf is doing when it's taking you uphill and downhill.
KATY: You're welcome.
JEANNETTE: ... but I don't know how to translate that to my actual gait. This is a very long question. I'm just going to miss bits out, but there's somewhere ... What she does note is that when she hikes downhill in a matter that leaves my quads and glute med sore, I do not get those dastardly calf pains. And the soreness in my quads and glute med is not debilitating and dissipates fairly quickly. So, she doesn't understand what's going on.
KATY: I feel like ...
JEANNETTE: She's really identifying it.
KATY: I feel like you understand very well what's going on, dear listener. So for everyone else listening you can find this superb diagram and horse butt explanation on my website. We'll put it in the show notes. It's something like, "Why do Knees Hurt When Going Downhill".
JEANNETTE: The downhill knees is now in ReThink Your Position.
KATY: So if you have ReThink Your Position. It lives in both. It lives online still as a free article and if you have a copy of ReThink Your Position.
JEANNETTE: It's in there.
KATY: You can get it in there too. So these three areas are all sharing the work to lower you downhill. And we all tend to dominate in one of the areas. And where you dominate just depends on all the other things that you do with your body; all the other ways that you call on your body when you're not doing a particular activity that you're talking about. I would say most people are probably quad dominant going downhill. Second to the lower leg, the solei. And then lateral hip being probably the least frequently dominant area of the body. And really, the lateral hips don't do what the soleus and the quadricep are doing. The quads and the soleus, again, with the skis pointing straight down the hill, you've got to brace with - you're about to tip over the edge. Your quads are tight and if your knees are slightly bent, your soleus are tight. One's behind you, and one's in front of you. But both of them are trying to hold you in that position as best as possible. The lateral hips, the outside of the hips - this is the horse butt. So imagine if you ever stood or walked behind a horse, their butt kind of drops down. And if you're familiar with the pelvic list exercise, which hopefully everyone listening to this show knows what that is. And if not, press pause and then go to my website and type in "pelvic list" and do the video: Where and How to Pelvic List. I think it's just How to Pelvic List.
JEANNETTE: We'll link to it.
KATY: We'll link to it. So you've got this horse butt action where the right side of the pelvis drops down and then it looks like the left side goes up a little bit higher but it's really just one side goes down. And then it reverses. So as it's walking, the butt of the horse in front of you- it looks kind of like it's twisting or rotating in front of you, flat against the wall - I'd say in the frontal plane. But not everyone knows that. Just imagine it's going up and down in front of you. You can do that in your own hips. In the downhill skier question before, we were saying you could turn your feet slightly to the right and step down sideways. Or you could walk sort of like you are slaloming down the hill. The horse butt is doing something similar but it's doing it while its feet still go straight down. What the horse butt is doing is sort of slaloming right and left. It's taking the weight that is precarious on the edge about to go shoosh down the hill of this snow ski example, and it's saying instead of taking all that weight and going straight down, why don't you just drop some of the weight to the right? And then we'll take a step down. And then we'll drop some of the weight to the left, and then we'll take a step down. So it's a slalom that's happening just in terms of shape. Your hips do that too. We all have horse butts as well. We've got that capability. But the muscles that do the horse butt action are the same muscles on that pelvic list video. And it requires a lot of hip flexibility. If you have a really tight IT band, you're going to lose your horse butt action. The muscles are your AB ductors - your abductors - are the same muscles that lift your legs out to the side if you've ever done leg lifts. If anyone is listening from the 80s and you did all those leg lifts - those are your horse butt muscles. But you have to stand to use them. And so when you're able to slalom with your horse butt, this is something else that can help that first person too. Be sure you've got your horse butt.
JEANNETTE: I was just thinking, because it might just be that she was using her soleus too much.
KATY: And her butt. That first person - that bracing.
JEANNETTE: Oh, the bracing.
KATY: Yes, right. So there was step down sideways. Walk a slalom. Use your horse butt. Those are all going to make it so you're not just at this brink and thinking I'm traveling straight down. You're not traveling straight down. You can do these gentle right to lefts. And that reduces how much, you know if you think of your foot pointing straight down, it reduces how much you're actually pushing on your foot that increases the risk of it slipping. It's where your pressure in your foot is. So yes, I think that the listener is really soleus dependent.
JEANNETTE: Yes.
KATY: The reason I'm thinking that too is by basically running down the hill, what you're calling flowing, you're making it so that you're never really doing an extended step down. You're picking your heel up before the soleus has a chance to engage. But, kind of like we were talking about in the previous episode of do I use hiking poles or not, I would want to not - That might be a good way to deal with the situation in front of you - I'll flow down - but there's gonna be times when you can't flow down and you want to be able to find your horse butt and you want to be able to use your quadriceps a little bit to be able to distribute the workload. So work on the pelvic list exercise.
JEANNETTE: And it sounds a bit like she does, because she says when she uses her glute med - which for the listeners who might not know, your gluteus medius is one of the abductors - she doesn't get that debilitating .... so I think she's on the right track. She's just not sure why, maybe.
KATY: I would just say you are just soleus forward in a way that someone else is quad forward and someone else is rib thrusting forward. It's just a movement pattern that's taken you far and you've been successful with and you're finding where you're not successful with it in this particular situation. So you want to adjust it. And then you would look and see other things that you're doing that are maybe keeping you soleus forward. Other sitting habits that you might have or standing habits. It could also just be your anthropomorphic dimensions that have set you up to have this space. So I don't think that there's anything to do except be more mindful of it and make adjustments. And then if you can have your soleus step back in other places and let other muscles step up in other non-hiking situations, just like the previous question, it'll allow you to distribute let's say lateral hip walking. It'll allow you to distribute the time you're spending being away of not using your soleus to more parts of the day instead of just when you're hiking. You'll want to practice that more than just on the hike itself.
KATY: Oh my goodness.
JEANNETTE: I know.
KATY: Ok, so if this has already happened to you and you're like, "I love to hike but when I go out this happens and I'm not sure how to proceed", I always say backup and we need better training before we go to hike at all. That's the most important advice that I have. And that's the thing that is going to be the most helpful to you. Recognizing why this hike is causing you pain or soreness. It could be because of volume. Right? If you're just not keeping up with the strength in your body in the way that would be called for this particular activity. And then everything we've already said can be applied to it. Adding more weight to your non-hiking times. Adding a backpack. Taking more stairs. More incline. More downhill. And building that into your movement diet so there's not such a stark contrast between you on a hike and you not on a hike. So we want to close that gap a little bit. Of course, things always come up. Injuries come up as well as you do your best and then something arises when you're in this space and you say "ok, what do I do here?" So I think that depends always on the context. It's going to be completely context dependent. There are times where if you get injured and you're saying "do I try to go forward deeper into this hike or do I turn around and back up at this point?" And that's going to be something that you would just have to decide. Obviously if it's an injury that's debilitating where you can't hike any longer, then the shortest path between you and ending the hike is what you want to take. For niggling pains that come up, I would often stop and give myself bodywork. So that's stretching, self massage. I would look and see is there a way where I could add support. How can I change the load to this area? So stretching it or massaging it, or icing it or whatever is how you change the internal state of the body. Then I look at how do I change the loads here. So that would be adding a brace. Do I have a brace or do I have something that I can make a brace out of? How can I change my gait? So for example if you are someone (this happens a lot) I'm going downhill, my knees are killing me, I still have three more miles. What do I do? Stop. Stretch. Massage. And then I'm going to make sure I horse butt it all the way down. But you have to know what horse butt is. Right? Changing your gait. I'm going to side step all the way down. So you might have to change - limping is just changing your gait. Right? Limping is to take your weight of off it. Maybe you want to get a hiking stick. Or two sticks. Right? These are going to help you take the load off the area so that you can finish. So you're trying to figure out how to change your load. Can you lessen your load? Can friends take some of your gear for you? Have you noticed that if you walk a little bit and rest then walk a little bit and rest you're more able to finish it? So you might have to change your pacing or your periods of resting. So those would be my solutions. That would be my approach to dealing with something. Just a reminder - work on these things before you get in there!
KATY: So anything to change the internal state. So that can be rest. Water. Glucose. Protein. Energy intake. Something to change your internal state. Massage. Whatever. And then you look for ... I really loved this book on long distance walking. I think it's called The Last Great Walk, I've talked about it before. In that book this man was walking 50 miles a day and he was talking about consciously switching his gait patterns when one set of muscles were tired. And with hiking, I feel like this is a strategy that needs to be used. You need to consciously - you know when we're walking I don't think we're as mindful as we could be. We're just walking. We're talking. We're doing other things. But if you really get quiet and pay attention, you'll see "I can actually hold my body upright." So what was tired - I don't know if we said this in this episode or the last episode about the whiniest child?
JEANNETTE: Yeah I think that might have been...
KATY: So if you haven't listened to the episode on To Hiking Poles or Not To Hiking Poles that episode is also for you. It's like the sister to this episode. Because that fatigue is coming from a particular set of muscles. Yes you could have whole body situations but you're going to deal with that when you're dealing with your hydration level and your energy level. A lot of times fatigue is about one specific area that you just keep using because you're not using other parts - you're not distributing your walk really well. There are parts of you that are not participating in the walk at all. So how can you bring more of those online and allow the more fatigued bits to relax while you use fresher parts that have been sort of on the bench until this part of the hike? So when you're able to switch between parts you'll find that there are ... your hiking team is bigger than you anticipated.
JEANNETTE: It's not the same but just thinking about marathon running and metabolic switching because I think ... I am not a marathon runner but there is this period, I don't know what mile it is, where you have to switch from being glucose driven to being fat driven. And it's hard. Physiologically you feel like you're running against a wall until that switch has happened. When you're hiking and you're talking about muscles it's a conscious decision. Your body is not forcing it on you. But it's the same thing. You have to find something different to bring online to give something else a break.
KATY: Yes. And that's going to be changing your alignment. That's how you bring it online - is you are shifting where you are pushing off in your foot. You're shifting how often you push off in your foot. You're shifting your spinal position. You're shifting your head position. These are all skills that are best to practice ahead of time. Again with the gait workshop. We need to have a gait workshop.
JEANNETTE: With a long hike in it.
KATY: I bet you it would be popular. Write us if you want this gait workshop.
JEANNETTE: Yes. Yes.
JEANNETTE: We should. There are so many different terrains. We should do it! Ok, so we've got a couple of pack related questions now. This one is: How to Support and Strengthen the Upper Body When Carrying Backpacks. How to avoid neck, shoulder, upper back pain after hiking and carrying a backpack. How heavy should your pack be? And any good ergonomic backpacks you recommend.
KATY: That's a lot of questions!
JEANNETTE: That's a lot of questions.
KATY: Yeah. Ergonomic - I don't have a suggestion for that. Backpack weight - I'm just picking off the easy ones first - Backpack weight is usually recommended 20% of body weight. 20% of body weight and that's for backpacking. I think for shoulder prep, that again the contrast between never having a load and then sudden onset of a load on your neck and shoulders. So carrying more often. I think a good thing - rucking - I could do a whole episode on rucking. This idea of carrying or carrying a pack. Start carrying. If you have a briefcase or carry more things in your arms, maybe start carrying things more on your back. If you're gonna go get groceries and you've been carrying bags because you're working on grip strength, maybe you're gonna start throwing them in a backpack instead and get your shoulders prepared. I guess my easiest advice, and this is what I use myself, and this is actually what I was thinking for the last question. When we're tired we tend to go forward. You know the backpack is on our backs and it's pushing us forward. And the way we tend to resist this forward motion is by arching our backs a little bit. Instead of trying to balance something that's pushing you forward by going opposite, like reaching back, reach up. Try to make yourself more like a pillar. Like a Greek pillar which is a very sturdy structure. Head ramp but head ramp from your head all the way to your feet. And you're pushing up as much as possible. You're pushing down through your legs and you're reaching up. And you maintain that activity. So it's less like a backpack is being flung onto your shoulders. And more like the backpack is being set upon a pillar. A pillar that doesn't really have a lot of subtle bends. And then also check in with your waist belt. If you're feeling a lot of pressure on your shoulders, good backpacks have a nice waist belt that allows your pelvis to carry a lot of the weight. So the backpack is really being placed more on your lower body and less on your upper body. So you might want to go to a sporting goods store and have a fit done for you, not just pick out the pack. But actually have someone do your belt so that it's fitting in the right way. And I think the first time I backpacked I didn't realize this. I had it on my shoulders. I didn't know how to put it on my pelvis. So, have someone fit you and do those straps for you so that it's not gouging into your shoulders.
JEANNETTE: I think often because it's low sometimes the strap ends up being around your waist and it needs to be low low to take that load on the pelvis.
KATY: Right. So don't buy a pack without having it fitted. Because I'm very short torso. There's gonna be a pack that's ergonomically better for someone with a longer torso. So you want to buy a bag that fits. Make sure that whoever is selling you the backpack is taking the time to fit you and is an experienced backpacker. Maybe don't order online. Maybe go into a store or find someone who does. That's like a bicycle. You want to have a bicycle fit to you and the same for a backpack.
JEANNETTE: Perfect. Ok. Second question about packs. I think we've covered this actually. Just in addition to hills, knees, and pelvic list that you've mentioned, can you discuss carrying a pack; how it changes loads on the body. How it should fit. Maybe even prepping shoulders to help carry the load as well. So I think we've pretty much discussed that. The only thing might be how it changes load on the body. Less, right, if you stack like a Greek pillar.
KATY: Yeah. So, I mean a backpack, and I'm talking a backpacking backpack, it's gonna add more weight. It's just adding more weight. So it's compressing things more. And so acting like a pillar is how you deal with this weight pushing down on you. The other thing a backpack is doing is - and you're not carrying it on your head. That would be pure compression if you were wearing a backpack on your head. So you could really be a column against this heavy 30 pound weight.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: That would be axial compression. There's not as much axial compression in a backpack as you'd think. Axial meaning straight down pushing your head towards your feet. When you put on a backpack, I'll just use 30 pounds right now, 20 or 30 pounds, it's going to tip you backwards. So the way that you deal with that is either by angling your torso forward so you're bending your torso forward which means, this is what makes it no axial compression. It's actually now here because you're forward. So your way to deal with that is by arching either in the thoracic spine, so the rib thrusting is a big part of how you can deal with that load. Or in your lower back, a fuller arch in your lower back. Or you can use your hamstrings. So in class we will practice - also in the virtual studio - we'll practice the difference between forward bending at the hips and forward bending with the spine. So if you know that difference when you've got this backpack on, you're sort of stalled in this slight forward bend. But think of it coming from the hips. In which case you have your hamstrings. And you have the glutes - you have that whole posterior line that can help hold the backpack in front of you. Make sure you're not just trying to do it all with your back - that you're not getting your hips back so that they stack over your feet and then holding it up by arching your back. And I think that that's what a lot of people end up doing and why they feel so fatigued.
JEANNETTE: And why their back hurts.
KATY: And why their back hurts when they're backpacking. I mean back is written into the brand. We should call it butt packing.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: No, let's actually not call it that.
JEANNETTE: So it's forward bend. It's hip flexion or forward bend rather than spinal extension or rib thrust.
KATY: Or another way to say it is you are hip flexed. So it's hip extension, it's your hip extending muscles.
JEANNETTE: Ok. Right.
KATY: It's your hip extending muscles that are holding you. The glutes in the back of the line. The more leg we bring into it - our legs are strong, they're long, they're big. Our spines are dainty.
JEANNETTE: I feel a VSM class - a virtual studio class - on
KATY: Just backpacking.
JEANNETTE: Backpacking and how you can balance the backpack.
KATY: Yeah, and so when you learn how to use your hips - I mean, I think that we're not really well versed in our hips. This will be our first - this will be the overarching theme for our gait week that we do out there in the world, is we're not using our hips. We are hiking with our lower backs and our knees. We're hiking around our hips. We're not using our lateral hips, we're not using our glutes and our hamstrings to hold us upright. Now you're going to have to have some work in the spine. But it's about distribution. It's mostly in the spine. And a lot of time is what happens is when it comes to the spine then people bend their knees. They bend their knees to deal with the fact that the backpack is pulling them backwards.
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: So then they end up in their lower back and their knees before they've even taken a step.
JEANNETTE: They're essentially balancing their weight by bending the knees forward which balances the weight tipping them back.
KATY: Yes they are balancing their body by changing the positions of these joint axes. To sort of bring it so it's stacked more inline. So just knowing - this goes back to the other question - you have a lot of options. So there's not one that's really better than the other but you have multiple ways now. And if you only have one, you're going to feel tired. And on mile 17...
JEANNETTE: Right.
KATY: ... or kilometer 17, you could switch. It's like a Cessna - you have a fuel switch to go from one tank to the other. You want to be able to switch. But if you only know how to hold your backpack in one way, if your gait is only limited to this one thing, you're going to fatigue sooner because you've got no allies in your own body to help you. So just knowing that there's a different way to shift and to hold your pack that allows the fatigued muscles to relax, fresh legs to kick in. Then you can be switching between those.
JEANNETTE: Ok, perfect.
KATY: And some will be great for flat. Some will be better for uphill. Some will be better for downhill. But you don't want to take the same shoe to every party.
JEANNETTE: So it's the same thing. You're gonna have options on how you get downhill. Options on how you carry your backpack.
JEANNETTE: And that's going to get you through your 22 kilometers. Perfect. Ok. This is a very simple question. I don't know quite where it comes from or why they think they have weak adductors, but they're asking for the best exercises for weak adductors in the hiking space.
KATY: I feel lunges.
JEANNETTE: Lunges.
KATY: I mean lunges again. If it's in the hiking space then I'm gonna go with it's part of what is holding your leg and knee stable as you're taking steps. So lunges are a really great place to put a hiking step under a magnifying glass and seeing what's the foot doing? What's the ankle doing? What's the knee doing? What is the pelvis doing? And then you can do them all at once.
JEANNETTE: Great. So lunges. Ok we have two more questions. I would love to have a summary of stretches and strengthening you might recommend in a week that help support walking/hiking.
KATY: In a week.
JEANNETTE: So this is gonna be her weekly, or his weekly plan of stretching to support walking and hiking.
KATY: Ok. Well I would move it up to multiple times per week.
JEANNETTE: Ok.
KATY: Because doing anything once a week is not really gonna pay off too often when it comes to the changes you want to make. So here's my list: Strap stretch, calf stretch, soleus stretch, step downs, step up her stairs, squats. Squats are really good for the soleus.
JEANNETTE: And for the hips - getting up and down hill.
KATY: Yes. They're really helpful. Twists - spinal twists because so much of backpack carrying - you make yourself that column so the column action that you need to take to balance out the backpack can leave you with a really stiff core. So that's why I would put this not only what to to prep you, this is what you do on the trail.
JEANNETTE: Ok.
KATY: Giving you what to do.
JEANNETTE: Or when you get home when you need to be restored.
KATY: Even do multiple nights. It's what you do by the campfire. Or there's probably not going to be campfires in a lot of places, but in your tents when you're laying on your bed, just bring those out. So spinal twists. Anything that helps stretch the quadratus lumborum. So lateral bending, side bending crescent stretch on the ground or standing crescent stretch where you're bending to the side and you're pulling your ribcage away from your waist. Hiking doesn't use any of that shape. Go back to that body constellation. What is the constellation you've been in? Thoracic stretch - that's for that upper back relief. And then of course in preparation it's keeping your upper back flexible and able to make micro adjustments to deal with the weight of the pack. And toe spreading massage. That's when you put your hands between your toes and you massage and twist. You're rotating the front of the foot but you're also spreading and stretching the toes so that your feet are nice and mobile.
JEANNETTE: Great. Ok that's a nice routine. And finally: how to get yourself prepped from going from no hiking to hiking medium distance, to long distance, over varied terrain. Come to our group in Scotland!
KATY: That's right. I don't think we'd be able to transition. I mean would we be able to transition total non-hikers to hikers in a week? Perhaps. Perhaps we could do that. So listen to everything we just said. There were exercises that get your hiking parts primed. You can start with that. You start with exercises for hikers which we've already listed out. You start adding things like stairs. You start taking more stairs uphill and downhill because you need to get your heart and lungs used to carrying uphill. And then you can take your joints downhill as well. If you walk right now on flat and level, seeking a little bit of complex terrain, or incline, or downhill in shorter bouts around your neighborhood. You're not suiting up or loading up for anything as far as backpack weight goes, but you're making sure all of your walking isn't on flat and level. Adding a backpack - a loaded backpack - to walks that you're already ... if you're not walking at all just start walking. Start walking more. Start walking on more complex terrain. Start loading it lightly. Maybe you're just going to take your ... you walk to the library you're gonna take your books there. Take your books back. Park part way to make it even more stepwise as you need to. Invite - look for hiking groups. Look for easy hikes and then moderate hikes and see if there's guided hiking. Find someone that you like walking with who walks around the same pace as you so it's enjoyable. And then also find someone who is a little bit more advanced than you because it's nice to have someone push you just a little bit. And you can choose when you're ready to do that. And be pushed on something that's shorter. You're not going to commit to being pushed on something that's longer in duration. And then just over time you chip away with it and you're adapting your body more towards the mountain. You're meeting the mountain. Or the beach. Or wherever it is that you're doing your hiking.
JEANNETTE: Amazing. Ok we are all done with questions from the mailbag. But I just want to go back to the walking and swimming because I think you had something to add to that conversation.
KATY: Right. So one of the reasons, this goes to the movement diet and to this idea of a body constellation from My Perfect Movement Plan. Just the headspace and really trying to help people get into when they're thinking about figuring out their movement diet. Swimming and hiking are such good pairs. They're such good pairing of movement food, if you will. Because after you've carried a pack, and you've done this, it's not completely linear, but it's upright. It's weight bearing. It's compressive. It doesn't involve that much arm. I mean, yes there's some arm swing perhaps and some activity maybe you've got poles going down but it's not very rigorous on the arms. When you get to where you're going, or you get to a body of water, or maybe you can't do this on one hike but you're looking for how to balance out your love of hiking food with another exercise food that's complimentary, swimming is sort of the balance of that. Right? Your arms and your legs can go out wide. It uses your hips and your shoulders in directions not utilized by hiking or walking. It's buoyant. So there's this lengthening...
JEANNETTE: Decompression.
KATY: Yeah. Decompression of the spine that's happening. And then of course the medium of water is cleaning and it serves washing purposes if you're doing backpacking trips. And so I really love the pairing of those two together. And we start thinking about that. "Oh right." If you're off your feet but yet your feet are still active so you're getting all these stretches. You're stretching. But not in a way - the muscles and the joints are mobilizing but it's not necessarily seeded stretches for these body parts. It's just - It's more organic that way. So I love the pairing of the two. It just seems like the perfect wilderness meal to me. And if you pair it with an actual wilderness meal...
JEANNETTE: Then it's even better.
KATY: ... Wow, what a triathlon.
JEANNETTE: Just don't come with me because I won't have packed enough food.
KATY: That's right. You can come with me and I'll take care of that. So you're going to have to start bringing a snack.
JEANNETTE: Yeah. I'm gonna get better! Perfect! So that wraps up today's episode. Just get out there. Swim and hike. And we will see you next time.
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KATY: Or walk and carry. Whatever you do, you're taking a step.
JEANNETTE: That's right.
KATY: Thanks y'all.
JEANNETTE: Bye
KATY: Bye.
Hi My name is Megan from Kansas City. This has been Move Your DNA with Katy Bowman, a podcast about movement. We hope you find the general information in this podcast informative and helpful, but it is not intended to replace medical advice and should not be used as such. Our theme music was performed by Dan MacCormack. This podcast is produced by Brock Armstrong and is transcribed by Annette Yen. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to audio and find out more about Katy, her books, and her movement programs at NutritiousMovement.com.
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