Click on NOTE CATEGORIES to browse by topic, read through the entire archives, or type a topic in the search box.Biomechanist Katy Bowman and Parent Coach Mary Van Geffen talk about “Movement As Regulation” for spicy kids. Independent, non-conformist, neurodivergent and sensitive kids can be particularly thrown off kilter by social and movement restrictions. Mary and Katy discuss the need for these kids to express their feelings in a physical way. They unpack different types of movement, focussing particularly on outdoor play, big-body movement, combative play and controlled destruction, all of which can defuse the intensity of feeling and foster a sense of autonomy.
Learn how as a parent, the number one tool in your toolbox is your body; why physical closeness, modelling movement and moving with your kids can support their physical and emotional needs. They give numerous fun examples of games and strategies you can try with the spicy ones® in your life.
OVERVIEW
(time codes are approximate)
00:05:20 - What is a Spicy One™ (Jump to section)
00:09:45 - Parks and Green Spaces (Jump to section)
00:12:25 - Grief and Movement (Jump to section)
00:14:50 - Big Body, Heavy Work, Steamroller, Roly-Poly (Jump to section)
00:30:00 - Meltdowns (Jump to section)
00:38:15 - Preloading and Rolling with the Punches (Jump to section)
00:41:35 - You’re the Captain and Psychological Flexibility (Jump to section)
LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW
Your Perfect Movement Plan Book
Psychological Flexibility with Diana Hill
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
(Theme music)
This is the Move Your DNA podcast where movement science meets your everyday life. I'm Katy Bowman, Biomechanist, author, and Spicy One™. Everyone is welcome here. Let's get started.
Hello everyone! Just a little bit about today's episode. Many of you know that I wrote a book, Grow Wild, a few years ago all about how movement works in kid bodies - in a kid's life. And how everyone can get the movements that they need all at the same time and that means the kids and their adults whether they're parents or teachers or coaches medical professionals or anyone who creates space for pre-adult humans in their work or play by what I call "stacking their life". (I'm making a little finger air quotes around that.) I'm also interested in where movement overlaps other elements of life that don't necessarily seem to relate to movement at first glance. One of my favorite podcast episodes that I've done is on grief that is episode 104. It's called Death Moves and it's all about how our sedentary culture has impacted the way we grieve. And how we've come to perceive grief as mostly maybe even solely an emotional process and not a physical one - even though we all come from traditions that once packaged physical movement along with grief. So go listen to that if you haven't yet. But back to today's show.
Today we're going to be talking about parenting. And when we think parenting we don't automatically associate parenting principles or parenting techniques with movement. So while the information we're talking about today is beneficial for all kids, especially Spicy Ones™. It's also helpful if you yourself are an adult Spicy One™ or share space with other adult spice-ies.
So what is spicy? That's where we're going to begin today with my guest Mary Van Geffen. Mary Van Geffen is the international parenting coach for Moms of Spicy Ones™. She helps people who are highly competent in life but overwhelmed by motherhood to lean into the spiritual discipline of staying calm and cultivating warmth and tenderness all while trying to wrangle fiery future CEOs. Often this requires serious skill building and the balm of self-compassion.
KATY: Mary! Thanks for coming on to Move Your DNA and talking with me today.
MARY: This is an awesome moment for me because as I've told you before when I had a 6 and a 4 year old I had a friend introduce me to your work and I was like yeah I'm gonna put all my plates so low I got to do a squat every time. So you have impacted me for years.
KATY: Well, um, thank you. I'm glad to know that someone is rearranging their cupboards.
MARY: But that's wrong? You messed up?
KATY: No I think that's great. You know I write it in a book and then people do it. I find that that's an amazing phenomenon. You know books are a powerful tool.
KATY: As are social media posts because that's actually how I found you. I found you because someone had forwarded me this post. And I don't remember if it was a story. It was something very small and it went something like for kids who'd been in school all day for a Spicy One™ that was in school all day (although I don't even know if it was spicy specific) instead of you know, getting in your car and driving home, you're going to go right to a park. And you're gonna lay out a big blanket and you're gonna have a couple snacks and you're gonna let that kid who has maybe been bottling up reactions that maybe they would normally let out in spaces that they feel safer to do that in like their home environment, instead of you know, keeping it at school. They've had to sit still. They've had to be quiet. They've had to follow maybe more rules than they prefer - to let out that energy in that big park that could take it. You know? Whether I don't even think you said what to do at the park. I will often be like, you know, bring a frisbee or you know something to allow these bigger body movements. But it was just go there and see what happens and let the volume out there. Let the physicality out there. So I wanted to talk to you about this idea of movement being a tool for kids which we cover already. But this is Spiciness. This is something that I feel people would tune into if you um, are aware of Spiciness. So can we start with what spiciness is?
MARY: Sure. So I've actually registered the term "Spicy One™ ". And it's pretty inclusive of ... of course, you've got your obvious Spicy Ones™ which are your ADHD, your children that are neurodiverse and are just struggling to fit into the world that is not built for them. But then it really is inclusive - doesn't matter if you have a diagnosis. There are a lot of kids who just come out of the womb believing themselves to be your equal and to be fiercely independent and "I will do it and I don't need you to tell me how". They like to learn things through failure not through your great wisdom. They are highly persistent. They're deep feelers. They hurt people unintentionally often. They struggle with friendship stuff. And I'm describing myself as a child just so everybody knows. And then all the other people that feel like "Oh my gosh, my kid does not do first-time compliance." They are kind of just so - blazing their own path. They're often very creative, often gifted children. But really, will talk to adults with no problem and can be seen as disrespectful to other people. And so it just takes you on a path. I want to say this is like 20% of kids. Maybe they're highly sensitive and they notice everything. So your world is smaller because you have a Spicy One™ - because they just get overstimulated.
KATY: Mm-hmm.
MARY: I think that sometimes what makes somebody a Spicy One™ can also be who the parent is. The parent might have some things in their past they haven't worked through. Maybe the way they were raised wasn't tailored so great to them. Or maybe their spiciness was pushed down and not allowed. And so they may be really having struggles with a child I might not consider a Spicy One™. Like because maybe the parent has a high need for order or control or perfection. Like this kid's not going to wear the outfit you picked out. Might as well get rid of anything that feels scratchy. It's just there's so many battles that other parents win and then they're done and parents of Spicy Ones™ say,"Okay I got to figure out what actually matters and I got to lower the stakes here because everything can't matter." And it also puts parents on a journey of separating out their inherent goodness as a parent and the behavior of their child. Because there are some things we don't have control over.
KATY: Yeah, okay well I probably wanted to cry 3 times in what you were saying there. Different things that you were saying. I mean I'm definitely a Spicy One™ and have experienced parenting Spicy Ones™. Which is probably what drew me to continuing to follow your work. And we'll point everyone listening to resources about spicy parenting in general. Because that's really what you do. But I wanted to talk about this idea that movement was something that was a tool in the Toolbox - Spicy Parenting Toolbox. I certainly have used it to sort of temper spiciness ahead of time - to sort of get in front of it. I think sort of intuitively before I there was words for all these things, was figuring out that movement was a really good way of regulation …
MARY: Yes. Nailed it.
KATY: ... for myself for my children for my family for the community that we're in.. It's like if we can figure out a way to - I mean it's not like "bleed off energy". But that I could see that spicy behavior would arise predictably when there was a lot of sedentariness.
MARY: And a deficit of honoring the body and what the body needs.
MARY: Yeah, and it can be a park or it can be a green space. Sure, it's awesome if there's some stuff to climb or swings but there is just as much value in a big old open green space with a couple of trees. And I think what it is is that in some ways it's very child-centric. Nature in itself has not a lot of rules. And I hope that at your park you can slam a stick against a tree and it can handle it. Because that's how a child kind of learns what's in their bubble and what's in something else's. What could look like harming to somebody else is them getting it out exploring and using those big motor muscles that they didn't get to use all day during school. And I think we intuitively know that a great schedule for a kid is a breathing schedule. It's an in-breath of like, "Okay, we're working on handwriting now we're sitting still". There should be an out-breath 30 minutes after that where they're screaming and heading out of the hallway and out into outside. But we are trying to condense our school days into - pack it in, test them. So there's this after-school restraint collapse that's happening. And so making sure that the afternoon has at least an hour of "there is no plan here". And what also happens is you kind of learn who you are as a human when the parent isn't like "First we do this then we do that". Like "What are we doing Mom?" "We're hanging out." And Mom's not on her cell phone. Maybe you bring a book though. Mom is allowed to lay on a blanket and read a book but you might have your kid jump on top of you and that's extra points - bonus points for that full body contact that can happen when there's not a lot of diversion. And they will say, "Can I see your phone? Can I get on your phone?" And so there may be a couple of park trips that feel negative to you because you're like, "No, that's not what we're doing here." "Why why??" And and if they freak out, extra points. Because you're getting to that off-gassing that they need to get to. Some children need to have a couple of meltdowns a day to regulate and orient and process all that has happened to them throughout the day. They have held it together out in the world and now they need to let their freak flag fly and kind of just work through stuff. And so, how awesome to have that be at a park.
MARY: Yes there's some grief in it isn't there? Yeah because you've had to separate from what your body needed for a lot of the day. And so how beautiful if we as a parent can say "I will welcome in the messiness of what this is going to look like and it may be you whining next to me on the blanket the first few times until you trust that we will stay here an hour even though you're saying you don't want to". Me, as the parent know that this nature and this big blue sky or this cold and we're all bundled up. Cold temperatures too - very important to get out there and moving. And you will have to model it. "Okay I'm going to go try and climb that tree I don't know what you're doing but you can join me."
KATY: Yeah, I love that That's beautiful.
MARY: And like I was saying before, maybe you're bringing - you talked about bringing a frisbee. Maybe you're bringing a little hand shovel and it's about digging. And um and you're modeling for them looking at a roly-poly. Maybe it's a smaller movement but the bigger movements are great. It's also a great place to do like roly-poly which I think is a beautiful family game.
MARY: It's your child is laying down on the ground, You're laying next to them and then you say in a menacing tone, "Roly-poly ever so slowly". And as you do that you are rolling over top them. And it kind of seems like I don't think they can handle the full weight of this adult. This's going to hurt them. And they are squealing and it feels amazing. You come over the top. And then they roll over you. And you can come up with your own song. But it's also this full-body attachment strengthening. And there's giggles and it's just...It's a beautiful thing, especially if you've lost your way with play as the adult. And you might have so much on your plate that "I don't got no time for play." Well play is the language of children. So initiating - "We're gonna do Roly-poly you roll over me then I'll roll over you". And it's amazing that because your weight is spread out it doesn't... you can do it with a 4-year-old.
KATY: We call that steamroller. I'll just tell everybody, for us it's like a sudden onset steamroller. And I have you know I have older kids now who are 12 and 13 and I will still steamroller them. It's for kids who hate to have to get up in the morning. And that whole thing is a have-to. Right? That morning routine is like a loss of autonomy you know and so I always try to do it with humor. So I usually blast Muskrat Love and then come in and yell "Steam roller!" And it's really hard to be upset in that moment. You know humor as I've found really diffuses spiciness. I think our kids still need to be kangaroo'd a lot of the time. You know, we talk about kangarooing newborns, premies, and the idea that you might need to kangaroo, even if it's for just 30 seconds, your preteen.
MARY: Yeah, there's a whole conversation we could have on consent and yet knowing that teenagers need hugs. I don't even want to go on record about how I feel about that. But I got a seventeen-year-old who was walking out the door and I said, "Hold on! Hold on you need a hug." And I'm on the back of him like a koala and he's trying to shake me off in a playful way and then he leaves and it just kind of cracks me up. Because I'm also telling him you must ask for consent before you touch anyone.
KATY: Sure, Yeah. Well, I do think you have to feel the room. You know like there's gonna be a morning. It's all sort of - it's child-led. Child-led everything. You're still looking for signs that it's the right thing or the wrong thing and, yeah, but thanks for bringing that up. I didn't think of asking them for consent for steamroller.
MARY: And I'll add a delineation to "child-led". Because there are many of us who have gone down a path that is not so much gentle parenting. It's become permissive parenting. And I think there are things that should be child-led, like movement and hugs and hard conversations, and topics that feel very adult. But I think it's okay for our parenting to be child-centered. We are always considering what that child needs. But there are some things that you and I have been on the planet for 50 years and someone who's been on the planet eight years maybe doesn't get a choice in this one area. Because we know wherever we can collaborate I'm all about it. But I do feel like some folks in the gentle parenting space have sort of gone way to the other side where it's like, "Who am I to tell my child that they need to go to the doctor. It's their body." And it's like no, we still have to be the leaders. And we're slowly giving away that leadership. You're in that place now 12 and 13. It gets really sticky about what we're in charge of and what they're in charge of. But I just wanted to throw that out that child-led versus child-centered is different and for certain things.
KATY: Right. Well, scaffolding is still needed as transition. It's like walking you're on one foot you gotta switch to the other foot but there's a whole phase of support that gets you onto that other foot. So you're not "like well whatever the left leg wants to do I won't think about it because I'm the right leg."
MARY: Yes.
KATY: Um, Okay, so let's talk about movement again. You had talked about you know this idea of small little things with your hands at the park. And then there's this idea of bigger body. So bigger body is itself its own sort of category of movement for like in occupational therapy oftentimes it's called heavy work. You know you could think of it as big body work. So let's talk about it. It does not have to be in this context of a park or even a green space. It's its own thing. So how would you use something like heavy work?
MARY: Yeah, heavy work is obviously helping a child also build their proprioceptive - their ability to feel themselves in space. Which really helps them later on when they need to regulate. Sort of growing their ability to notice "I'm getting heated up". And that's also interoception. Right? Being aware of what's happening in your body. And I think of heavy work is like getting ahead of the fact that there's a lot of kids who have a sensory diet they need to fill. Like I need to have pushed a certain amount of things. And I guess we can kind of divide it into peaceful times versus times when someone is very angry. And during the peaceful times having some routine things we do like we all jump on the trampoline. We all try to - "I'm gonna need your guys' help moving all this firewood over". And that heavy work of feeling your body moving with added weight. I am currently wearing a weighted vest when I walk. And that's mostly to build up my - you can probably tell me if that's a bad idea, but... having that heaviness. It's the same reason that I think heavy blankets work. Any kind of pushing, pulling. I would just make it a part of the routine. "Oh I'm so glad you're home. I need you to help me push this thing. Oh Wow, you're strong. Yes! Thank you!" And that's more like you know - 3 to 10 is kind of the ages I'm thinking there.
KATY: Right.
MARY: But working that in. And I think the roly-poly is part of that. Basically, you're getting ahead of a sensory seeker who needs to get that feedback. And if they don't get it eventually will come up and maybe try to shove their brother in the hopes that their brother will shove them and they can feel that. So maybe that person needs you to put your hands up and say, "Oh can you push as hard as you want?" Do some penguin wrestling. Having playful things that really make you feel that ...I mean you probably have better words for this.
KATY: I think when my kids were younger, it took me a while to recognize this - I call it big bodywork - but the need... actually like Sumo wrestling was the game that was invented. "I just need to wrestle you". And for a while I was "Why?" And then I was like this is someone who's really identifying that what would make them feel complete. "It's like I need to eat something."
MARY: Yes.
KATY: They needed to push on something and "Mom would you wrestle me: and it wasn't like "I want to hang out with you." It was like I physically need to have to push on something but more importantly, like push on me. And we just describe it as heat out. And and there's sometimes when I could do it and then there's sometimes when I can't do it. You know and to recognize like okay I yeah.
MARY: Can we just say that having a dog is like if you can do it? If you're in a space, having a pet that is sturdy and doesn't - like my seventeen-year-old will still come and blanket the dog and lay on top of him. And I'm like "Is the dog okay with this?". Yeah for when we can't be there.
KATY: And I think it's tricky you know. This is a separate conversation. It has nothing to do with spiciness but it does have to do with parents concerned about their kids not getting enough movement. "Oh my kids are always on the screens and they won't move. It's it's to make sure you're not missing the times when they're actually asking to move with you. And I have a new book coming out and my favorite line in it is "Don't just make muscles make memories". And a lot of times there's a resistance to you know the kids wanting to do this type of play.
MARY: Yes, because sometimes it ends in tears. Especially when it's siblings. But guess what that's okay. When siblings are roughhousing and and filling that need for sensory input they are learning so much. Often people are telling me "How do I get them to stop" and I just want to first start by acknowledging and being grateful for the learning lab that they are in and what they are learning about being a human, being a roommate, what works, what doesn't, how far I can go with something when I'm shoving someone's face before they start crying. These are important. We want them to learn these things and obviously, we want to protect if there is a child who is not consenting and is sort of the the weaker. We want to get in there. But I think there's more latitude and there's more just setting up rules. "Okay, you guys need a safe word. What is your safe word so that if Simon wants to stop he can?" But check yourself if you don't want any roughhousing because likely you either came from a place where the roughhousing turned brutal and there wasn't a parent that had some supervision or you didn't have siblings or you didn't have any brothers, wild brothers. And the only interactions was with your sister pulling her hair or something. Just just know this is a different family you're raising. Doesn't have to be the same script.
KATY: Right? And if that child is coming to you, the adult, or me in this case, to recognize that maybe you're aversion to doing it with them - not just the aversion of roughhousing in general, but that they want a rough house with you is like, this is a new movement. This might be a movement for you that you don't feel comfortable doing with your body - not in the sense of I'm not okay with it psychologically but physically it would be hard for you. You know like "Am I going to hurt myself?" And so it opens up this idea of this could be some of the movement that you've been craving for your own physical body that's right there available to you in your own home. And it benefits the kid who's asking to do it too. You know, how can you - I mean I could speak for my own self. Like I'll be like "Okay I'll Sumo wrestle you but no..." You know and I could enter the parts that I'm not okay with: "I'll do snowball fights with you but none to the head right now" for your excellent aimer. "I know that you like that hitting the target but my head can't be a target" or "I'm fine doing this game with you but no tackling in this particular way because I'm you know concerned about my knee". Or whatever it is. That you have their ability to ask for - You can set Nuance Rules. You know it's setting rules in play as the kids' thing. "What can I do exactly?" And like they do more rules and they actually do play.
MARY: Um, yeah, one. Yes, I Love that. Yes, and they're learning so much as they do that. And I think if you can find at Goodwill or your local resale one of those mats that were for beginning crawlers are now great places to wrestle. I remember it at like age 7 watching some wrestling videos with my son so that we could do it in a safe contained way. "Okay I'm going to start on all fours and you're you're over top my back. And what is the goal here and how do we stop it. If the combativeness of wrestling just doesn't feel safe for you - and I get that for some people, depending on your past or just how your body is - there are other ways like doing back-to-back situps. So you're both sitting on your bottom and your arms are linked and you're trying to stand up. And it's more collaborative together while pushing against each other. So that might be one.
KATY: Mm-hmm
MARY: Another is Penguin wrestling which I alluded to which my version is you almost pretend you're both on a tightrope. And you're facing each other with your palms open wide touching. And you have to be in a straight line with your feet. And you're trying to push each other off that straight line. And you'll kind of learn that actually relaxing a little bit makes you a harder foe than coming in all um, pushing. And that pushing against the hands will feel good.. There's also sitting down on the ground everybody has socks and you have to try to get off other people's socks with no hands. So there's a lot of ... kids love challenges, physical challenges.
KATY: They do.
MARY: And for instance, this doesn't really meet the um wrestling but the challenge of sitting to stand and trying to get up with no hands. They can do it. So it's not really a challenge for them. But it makes them feel so good when they pop up and you're like "Well hold on. I'm still learning that one." Saying yes to the physical challenge is so important.
KATY: Yeah, and definitely seeing that spicy energy or any energy of like "I feel sluggish." It could be "I'm spicy right now" or it could be "I feel sluggish because I haven't moved all day." Fitness competitions are big. You know it kind of lets out a lot of heat in that way and it's usually who can do more push-ups, who can hold a V-sit on the ground longer, let's do airplane, let's do Acroyoga. These are also that "big body" and they don't have that fight energy but they have challenges. And challenge is a good I think of like - it's a good way to let air out of the tires a little bit.
MARY: So it's like challenge versus combat.
KATY: That's right, That's right and you can have a way a space to go because sometimes the child doesn't know any other options. Right? It's like having a vocabulary. You only know one word and if another person doesn't know the word, it's very hard to communicate. But once you are able to start identifying "this is a request to let out intensity right now" or let out heat, it's a lot easier to respond to it in a way like "Oh this is someone asking for a movement snack." Essentially you know...
MARY: hmmm, yeah.
MARY: Yes, and let's talk about when the child is heating up past the point where they're kind of logical. And this happens a lot with the Spicy One™ . They have a lot of meltdowns. They are kids that will try and hit you when they're upset.
KATY: Mm-hmm
MARY: And so I like you to have a plan of what is allowed when you're angry? Because if it's "don't make that face. Don't you dare stomp. Don't you slam a door." We cannot take all the options off the table that feel delicious in expelling that anger out. So figuring out what is allowed and communicating that when people are calm. And even better yet you modeling it when you're faux upset. So, “Oh my boss just said we have to come in on Saturday. Ugh! Where's the throw bag? Where is the throw bag? I want to throw all these bean bags against the wall. Can you please clear out? I don't want to hurt anybody." Right? So you're modeling I'm angry I'm not going to hurt another human but I do have a right to move my body to get loud.
KATY: Mm-hmm
MARY: But just trust that this is in the service of needing this less and less as you learn to regulate. So I would call having "controlled destruction" at your fingertips important. How can you in a loving way come alongside your child and destroy something together? Maybe that means saving all your egg cartons and saying "I can feel you heating up. You are so disappointed we're not going to the zoo. care to join me in ripping up..." And that feeling of just pulling apart and destroying something in a way it cannot be put back together. You can also throw ice at something loud like a metal trash can that feels delicious. What's coming up for you as I say that?
KATY: What's coming for me? Could you see it on my face?
MARY: I could see it in your whole body, Katy.
KATY: My whole body because I was this like I mean one I've thinking of the noise of the ice this. So this is for me - I can be in this space. I rarely get into this space now but definitely going back into parenthood put me back into this space. Because I had not been given a toolset of dealing with - so dealing with rage is the way it feels to me. Even though I'm not a person - like I'm not a vengeful person I'm not I have no meanness in me - but I can turn into rage. And to me it's just more like an eruption There's an eruption that's happening and what I did one time and I waited until all my small children (2 of them) and my husband had left the house, and I took a 5-pound bag of flour and threw it all over the kitchen. I threw it everywhere and I was watching myself do this and it felt so good. And I didn't clean it up and then when everyone came home, it was like "What happened?" And I was like "I just had a total meltdown like I just couldn't control it."
MARY: Who needs your rage room if you have a bag of flour and your kitchen?
KATY: And I yeah it it was everywhere. And for years like anything that was on the counters. There were cobwebs with flour in it. There were window sills where the things had been removed but a fine white dusting. The object sat I mean for years until we moved out of that house. So definitely that one.
MARY: So it doesn't sound like you're recommending that one.
KATY: Well, I mean it felt great and it was tougher to clean up. But I can just I can embody that feeling. And yeah, breaking things is always...it just lets it out immediately. What is it about that? If you can just take your feeling and get it out through the destruction of something else. Where now I think I've learned how to break down my own feelings on the inside. I've learned that now but only through practice.
MARY: Yeah, there is something about expelling it, you know with even a stick against a tree that then breaks and it's like "yes".
KATY: Yeah, or an Instagram comment. That's another way, but I'm like maybe there's another way for you that can get it out in that way.
MARY: Yeah I don't think that's helping the trolls because it's all virtual.
KATY: It's trying to do the same thing though. You're like if I could just pass what I'm feeling on to another object or a thing, you know. So there are tools of learning how to just recognize what it is and and feel better. Feel better all the time not just even in those situations like you said. Like what was in your bio, This idea of the spiritual growth. Of being able to stay calm. That's what it is for me, for sure.
MARY: Yeah, and another movement I don't know if you would call this movement, Katy, so is all that's available to us in our breathing.<
KATY: For sure. It's a movement.
MARY: In breathing you know that slow exhale. People always say "Just breathe." Well, I hope they don't mean inhale which is kind of a startle reflex. It's really the exhale. If we can really just live on that exhale. If we can find ways of holding and then expelling and then holding at the bottom - Box Breathing. Whatever it is. But also part of breathing is like making sounds: like moaning, growling. Those are powerful ways for Spicy Ones™, adults and younger, to move through a feeling of ... growls ... you know if you can go into your car and scream out a song and cry a little bit you feel so cathartically better. And we need to equip our children with that. And it's okay to growl. If we want to teach a more sanitized version, there is "ooving" or "vuing" rather. V U. I think this comes from the work of Peter Levine and it's basically rattling around in your body and going "VVVUUUUU". And you're doing it right if everything's rumbling because then you're kind of getting your vagal - all your nerves are getting into place with it and it's just very calming. But there is something - I think there's a kind of a controlled destruction in taking all the breath that's in here when the stimulus happens and you're angry and SHHHHHHH moving it out with sound because it's like you want to have an impact on your environment that equals the impact happening inside your body.
KATY: Mm-hmm. I would definitely think of breath as a type of movement. And you can take the way you're feeling and put it all into a plate that's breaking into the ground. Or you can take it and sort of distribute it amongst all of your tissues through vibration. And then and then it finishes it. It goes through and you've moved past. It's moved through you, maybe. it's tough to say what an emotion is, you know, as far as its physicality.
MARY: Yeah, well, some would say an emotion is literally just sensations. And then our brain narrates what they think it means. There's this other school of thought which is, okay, Berne Brown would say that we know most Americans, when asked how do you feel, only knows 3 words: I feel sad, happy, scared. And there's such a wealth of diversity of other feelings and nuances. And we don't have them at our fingertips. There is something that happens when you name a feeling that you get kind of a dopamine burst - when you find that right feeling. I've seen it in too many clients where we found the right word and it's like "yes" that and something is released. But, becoming aware of the sensations within your body instead of naming the emotion is another way to go. You keep talking about heat and we can help a Spicy One™ recognize, "Oh wow, my hands are clenching and unclenching."
KATY: Mm-hmm
MARY: "Okay I'm noticing that my stomach feels tight." And just repeating that to ourselves. And I think some of that becomes more obvious in movement. I mean in stillness we begin to cramp up and clench and that is not good for anyone. So whether that is a movement of a breath letting our shoulders down or it's like "let me do a sprint" or
let me grapple with something", you know this wrestling idea, I think it helps us come to terms with what is happening inside our body which then lets it move.
KATY: Get a punching bag. We have a punching bag That's also really awesome.
MARY: Yes I want a punching bag so bad. We had one of those like guys that you get from Amazon that topple over. They're blow-up but they they're too easy to beat up.
KATY: Um, go rock 'em sock ‘em.
MARY: Yes!
MARY: Okay I have a thought about that.
KATY: Yeah. Tell me.
MARY: And this would be more the adult Spicy Ones™ is I think something shifts when we care for ourselves. So yes, movement for sure. But I wonder if the same thing happened - you were talking to somebody who kind of is more sedentary and wishes they were still painting. And they started the day by painting for 30 minutes before they attended to other people. I think they would be less spicy than they normally are. There's something about mothering ourselves and caring for ourselves and leaving this narrative that a good mother is a selfless mother. And instead doing some things that our body needs - our wellness needs that make us like we can more go with the punches. I'm the messing up that phrase we can...
KATY: We can roll with the punches. We can rock ‘em sock ‘em. Punching bags.
MARY: We can handle more when we know we've attended to ourselves. It's the same. When we've connected with ourselves, we're more connected with what we need and we're clear-headed. And so when our child is acting in a way that is distasteful to us or defiant, we can sort of subconsciously know "I've tended to me". I'm not relying on this interaction to make my day or make me happy or make me complete.
KATY: Yeah, you know what? So I hear that is like this idea of self-care. And then what also occurred to me is that a big part of spiciness, at least in my realm, is autonomy. And I think a big thing for me was - it's not so much that I couldn't control anything. It was that I can't do what I want to do. And I see that in children a lot. Right? They're like, "So much of this is not what I would be choosing to do." There are certain parameters around - there are some - we've got some boundaries around lots of things. And there's a lot of wiggle room of how you can get it done. But it still has to be done. We have sort of a saying in our house, "You can tell me what to do or how to do it but you can't tell me both".
MARY: Oooh.
KATY: You want to write that down?
KATY: Yeah, right. So that's kind of like our - because we realized it's like okay if I have to do it, you can't tell me how to do everything. And then vice versa as well. So, when I walk in the morning, what it does for me is not - yes, it is self-care. But I think for me, it's more like "Look this was important to me and I did it." I was able to make a choice here.
MARY: I've been the captain of my domain in some areas.
KATY: Oh my gosh. My mother's mantra is you're the captain of your own ship. And my mom's also spicy.
MARY: I bet. I can only surmise.
KATY: When I acted on that it completely you know erupted into everything.
MARY: But you said. You said.
KATY: I'm the captain. But I'm a captain. But it it was that sort of really deep recognition of like you get to choose you know? And I feel like whether it's painting or movement or whatever else, when you have a portion of your day (and if you can start it even better) with something that you've chosen, I feel like that might really temper spiciness too. Maybe it just happens that I choose movement. Or maybe it's both. Maybe it's a double-whammy that I'm choosing movement and the movement is also good for my spiciness. So it really sets me - I can go a whole day and have no problem with whatever the day throws at me as long as that condition was met.
MARY: Yes.
KATY: Does that resonate?
MARY: I don't really have anything to add. My inkling is that the movement is crucial. Move and do your painting. Because there is something that's happening with the - just the like how you talk about like all the lubricating the fascia and all that. We need to lubricate our soul in order to be flexible and creative with the people in front of us. And so yeah, so important.
KATY: Yeah Diana Hill called it psychological - I mean psychological flexibility is so key to staying calm. The idea that it's not going to go the way that you thought it would go. Dr Diana Hill is a psychologist and writes. She has some different books about this. But it's been really helpful to be like, oh if I can stay flexible but I just find that being flexible in my body really helps me be flexible in my mind. There's a relationship there at least for me.
MARY: I mean I think that's the human experience. But yes, we can get all the letters from people saying "No, I didn't have to move I just sat still and I was fine."
KATY: And for sure there's gonna be that person and there's people who can smoke. I love the grumpy old men and it's like "I smoked every day and I ate bacon every day." You know and like there's always going to be an outlier for whom things don't apply.
MARY: Sure.
KATY: Is there anything else? I'm just gonna take a pause here.
MARY: I think if I had wanted to say anything else about movement and parenting a Spicy One™, it would be your body is like your number 1 parenting tool. And so many limits and moments of connection - you know sometimes we think of those as 2 opposite things but they can actually be in the very same moment. We're setting a limit while connecting or after connecting. And most of that becomes present non-verbally through your body. So moving your body to the person that you are trying to influence is really Important. So, in other words, no Ass Parenting. Don't lay around on your butt and say, “Hey, we got to get we got to leave soon." And usually, the person listening is not doing that. They're washing the dishes, while they're trying to grab the bag to get everything to go while saying, "Hey, make sure you get your shoes on." The message has not been received. You must go with your body. Take your body to that other body. Find a way to resonate where you're both smiling at each other and there's some eye-to-eye contact and we're in each other's awareness and then say, "It's time to get your shoes on." Stay there physically. Your presence, not menacing whatsoever, just them seeing that wow your full attention is on them getting their shoes on. Mom's not gonna get distracted. Mom is physically here. So I would just remind people that proximity is so crucial and setting limits with kids.
KATY: I love the physicality of that. And I can also see the trickiness of that. Because our lives are so full and busy that yelling at you to get up while I'm packing lunches or while - like that's the way it goes. So that means in the same way. Someone would ask me, "Well, how could I possibly move more in a day?" It's sort of the same thing: doing less, slowing down, getting up earlier, going to bed earlier so I have time in the morning to walk in there and sit with you as you find your sweatshirt that you're gonna wear that day or whatever it is you know.
MARY: And remember that - parenting for the long game too. 20 years from now you won't be like "Did I always have the best lunches packed?" You'll be like "Does my kid trust me?" and "Did I have influence?" And that comes from going in and sitting on the bed and slowing down and being available. That is the reason you're parenting. So sometimes we get so wrapped up in the shelter and you know Maslow's hierarchy that we do need to do. But there's this other long-term thing that's actually more important.
KATY: So yeah, sitting down quietly is sort of the opposite of steamrollering - Doing steamroll in the morning but it's maybe my version of the same thing. It is me being here.
MARY: Mmm. Yeah, and there's something about repeated moments of being here - I can plan that Mom looks pretty busy or I'm busy or I snubbed her because I'm a tween and that's how I roll but I know that every night she comes in and whatever your routine is, you know, becomes less and less invasive as they get older. But if there are these repeated moments where they get your full attention and you are calm and grounded, those moments will be entryways to some big conversations as long as they can they can trust they're going to happen. Sometimes it's just that I drive you to school every morning and you know you have this time.
KATY: Beautiful. Well you post on social media every day, don't you?
MARY: Every weekday.
KATY: Every weekday, You take the weekends off.
MARY: I do, yeah.
KATY: Good on you! Ok, so I would recommend that everyone go over to your accounts to see because you are sharing very helpful - these little tidbits, you know. It's sort of like the equivalent of a word a day. You know, it's a tip or it's a thought a day. Where can people find you?
MARY: So definitely at Mary Van Geffen on Instagram but if you're not an Instagramer, you can join my newsletter where I'm giving my thoughts every Friday. And if you're ready to kind of uplevel your parenting, taking Calm Class which is 90 minutes of basically thinking through and coming up with a calm-down recipe. So that when the s hits the fan, you're like "Oh yeah, I'm supposed to breathe. I'm supposed to sense, I'm supposed to move. And this is what I decided to think ahead of time." Getting a plan together to help you calm down because none of the parenting tips really work unless you are a regulated calm adult in the room.
KATY: Thank you so much for coming and talking with me today. It was lovely talking with you again.
MARY: Always fun to be with you.
KATY: Yeah, thank you so much.
(Theme music)
Hi. My name is Anna Grojec from North Bergen, New Jersey. This has been Move Your DNA with Katy Bowman, a podcast about movement. We hope you find the general information in this podcast informative and helpful, but it is not intended to replace medical advice and should not be used as such. Our theme music was performed by Dan MacCormack. This podcast is produced by Brock Armstrong. And is transcribed by Annette Yen. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to audio. And find out more about Katy, her books, and her movement programs at NutritiousMovement.com.
